Dangerous Liaisons: How To Identify and Escape from Psychopathic Seduction

Dangerous Liaisons by Claudia Moscovici

I’m happy to report that my nonfiction book about psychopathy, on which I’ve been working for the past few years, Dangerous Liaisons: How to Identify and Escape from Psychopathic Seduction, is out in print. You can find it on online bookstores, including amazon.com, on the link below:

http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Liasons-Recognize-Psychopathic-Seduction/dp/0761855696/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318095970&sr=1-1 
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClaudiaMoscovici?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/B0B0QYah9ZE
I wrote Dangerous Liaisons based not only on my own terrible personal experience with a psychopath, but also on years of gathering information about psychopathy, from the leading psychology books and websites. Developed from this blog and incorporating some new chapters as well (on psychopaths in literature and art), Dangerous Liaisons includes:
1) information about psychopaths and their victims;
2) a clear and indepth explanation of their techniques of luring victims and
3) a discussion of strategies of escaping from their clutches and moving on with one’s life.
Making a clinical diagnosis of personality disorders is, of course, only up to professional therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists. But identifying potentially dangerous traits isn’t just for experts. Any of us can be adversely affected when we allow disordered individuals into our lives. Therefore, knowledge is the most essential form of self-defense for all of us.
Please find below the book’s Advance Praise and Table of Contents.

Advance Praise 

As a clinical specialist in the narcissistic spectrum personality disorders, I find that nobody addresses this subject matter more trenchantly, and with more penetrating insight, than Claudia Moscovici does in her consistently illuminating work. Hers is a clinically keen, lucid mind, indeed. In Dangerous Liaisons, Moscovici presents the reader with the rare opportunity, if he or she dares, to enter and understand the mind and twisted machinations of psychopathic personalities. With dangerously deficient consciences, psychopaths are highly inclined to perpetrate sundry disturbing violations against others, remorselessly. In her examination of the dynamics of this puzzling, chilling personality, and in applying her insights to real-life, modern examples of classic psychopaths, Moscovici has written a book from which anyone (curious lay person or seasoned clinician) interested in how psychopaths insinuate themselves into others’ lives, leaving trails of often hard-to-imagine devastation, will benefit immensely. With Dangerous Liaisons, Moscovici makes an invaluable, genuinely distinguished contribution to the literature on psychopathy.

Steve Becker, MSW, LCSW LoveFraud.com feature columnist, Expert/ Con­su­ltant on Narcissism and Psychopathy 

The Institute has long said that what is shocking is not that pathology exists, but that there is so little public and survivor education about the most dangerous relationships on the planet. Claudia Moscovici’s Dangerous Liaisons is a needed perspective about the invisible tyranny and death grip of pathological love relationships and what they do to those who love psychopaths. We can’t avoid what we can’t spot, and we can’t heal from what we don’t identify. This book helps to highlight the unique strength and lure of pathology, the devastating outcomes to the survivor, and an understanding of what pathology is and does. Not merely another ‘I-Fell-In-Love-With-A-Psychopath’ memoir, Dangerous Liaisons dives into recent information by the leading experts about the most disordered and dangerous person alive.”

Sandra L. Brown, M.A. is a psychopathologist, the CEO The Institute for Relational Harm Reduction & Public Pathology Education, and author of Women Who Love Psychopaths (2nd Ed.), How to Spot a Dangerous Man, and Counseling Victims of Violence.

“I don’t want my past to become anyone else’s future.” – Elie Wiesel

Contents

Introduction

Part I. What is a Psychopath?

1. Charismatic Psychopaths: Mark Hacking and Neil Entwistle

2. What is a Psychopath? Close Readings of Hervey Cleckley’s The Mask of Sanity

3. Psychopaths and Pathological Lying

4. The Psychopath’s Antisocial Behavior

5. Psychopaths as Lovers

6.  Psychopaths and Failure

Part II. The Process of Psychopathic Seduction

1. The Case of Drew Peterson

2.  Red Flags: How to Identify a Psychopathic Bond

3.  The Process of Psychopathic Seduction: Idealize, Devalue and Discard

4.  Artistic Psychopaths: The Case of Picasso

5. The Psychopathic Seducer in Literature: Benjamin Constant’s Adolphe                                                                                            

6.  The Women Who Love Psychopaths

7.  Coping Mechanisms for Staying with a Psychopath

Part III. How to Save Yourself from Psychopathic Seduction

1. Escaping the Psychopath

2. Understanding the Science Behind the Disorder

3. The Two Phases of Mourning: The Rational and the Emotional

4.  Sharing Information with Others

5. Resisting Family/External Pressure to Stay with the Psychopath

6. Know your Worth: A Healthy Self-Esteem is the Key to a Good Life

7. Conclusion: Reclaiming Your Life

Notes

Bibliography

Additional Resources: Websites

Claudia Moscovici, psychopathyawareness


About these ads

231 Comments

  1. ((((((((((((((((( Claudia))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!! WOOT!!!! WOOT!!!!

    Congrats!! I can HARDLY WAIT to read it!!!

    Much love and hugs!

    Kel

  2. I can’t wait to read it! Thank you Claudia for writing this very important book. Your writing on psychopaths is always right on, and very insightful. And I hope many clinicians take Steve Becker’s advice and read this, as well as the general public.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this!

  3. Thank you so much guys! I am so glad that I started this website and wrote this book, not only to help others in my position and inform the general public about psychopathy, but also for the genuine friendships I found through this sometimes very painful learning process. Claudia

  4. Claudia,

    Congratulations on the book!! Thank you very much for writing this book and sharing your experiences with this illness and the impact it has had on your life. You do an amazing job of articulating the symptoms and their affect on other people.

    I am in complete agreement with your ideas regarding psychopathy, based on my own on-going experience. The more of us that speak out our experiences and create awareness, the faster we will create protections in the law and hold the people responsible for protecting the public accountable.

    Psychopathy is a mental illness or disorder, which everyone will agree. They are emotionally deficient and do not experience emotions the way they should. Its actually very sad that these people have been emotionally crippled and they do not even know it. As a result, their judgement and morality is not colored with a full spectrum of emotional influence. Empathy, also known as ‘Theory of the Mind’ is an enormous influence on the decision to harm others, physically or emotionally. The emotional abuse that comes from living around psychopathy is relentless, because you simply must do things their way to avoid conflict. Without empathy or the ability to put themselves in your shoes and see the situation from your perspective they will find fault in everything you do, for which they do not agree. They do not experience the emotional strife and feelings that come from being in conflict, so they are undeterred by the emotional harm to others created by their choices.

    You have done a wonderful job helping people really deal with psychopathy in their lives. I hear myself using your words constantly. Congratulations and Thank You.

  5. Chris, thank you so much. I’m very glad to be able to help others. When I started writing this book I recalled all the books that helped me, that I kept by my nightstand during the first months after I broke up with the psychopath, to come to terms with what I had lived through. I hope my book can help others as well. And it was therapeutic to write it, since in writing you process the painful experience psychologically and intellectually as well. Claudia

  6. Claudia,

    While we might not be novelists or writers here, per se, I think emphasizing the value in journaling our experiences or blogging about it just cannot be understated. It really does help to process the experience. For me, when I look back on the things I’ve written, even while with him, I’m so glad I’m not anymore. I’m glad I kept “documentation” of some of the time spent with him. I can’t quite look at the emails I’ve saved for four out of the ten years i was with him, but I keep them as a sort of goal for me. I’ll know when I can open them and see the sickness, both in him and of myself throughout the psychopathic bond, I will have completely healed and then I will erase them.

    Claudia, your friendship to me has been inspiring and healing in so many ways. I’m so grateful for that and I’m so happy for you and this new adventure in your life. Kel

  7. Kel, as you know, your friendship means a lot to me. I’m also glad we’ve both made other friends on this blog who are so nice and supportive. I agree with you, writing helps a lot because, believe it or not, thought is kind of a mental shorthand sometimes. We have the impression we think in great detail and put together ideas logically, but sometimes we don’t. When we see our ideas (and those of others) on a computer screen, however, it’s easier to connect them and make some rational sense of experiences that are painful, confusing and emotional. Claudia

  8. Claudia, I just ordered your new book. Here in Canada, Amazon will ship it in 2-3 weeks. Just in time for the chilly November weather, one of the best times to read books. – Julian.

  9. Kelli, I definitely agree regarding the value of journalling and/or blogging in healing. I think we all go through a “swirling thoughts” phase near the end of the psychopathic relationship and in the months after going no contact. Writing of any kind seems to force us to sort out our thoughts one at a time, making them easier to deal with. – Julian.

  10. Julian, I really appreciate this! I hope to see you and all of my online friends from this blog not only make progress and recover from the psychopathic bond, but also thrive in their lives. We’re already starting to see that happen and hopefully we’ll be here to encourage each other each step of the way. Claudia

  11. Guys, here’s the new youtube trailer I did for Dangerous Liaisons. How do you put the video into the message (rather than just the link)? I’ve seen a few of you do this before. Claudia

    http://www.youtube.com/user/ClaudiaMoscovici?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/B0B0QYah9ZE

  12. Lets see if this works.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/ClaudiaMoscovici?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/B0B0QYah9ZE

  13. Gary, thanks so much!

  14. Claudia: This is simply amazing!!!! I have learned so much from your insight, wisdom and perspective as well as personal experience. You have taken a traumatic experience in your life and have made something GOOD from it in promoting the awareness of these predators. I believe it was YOU Claudia that made me first aware of the animal I was involved with and why I suffered so much.

    Thank you with all my heart x0x0 Linda

  15. Amazing claudia!! Well done and thank you so much for doing such wonderful articles that support and help so many of us. As Julian says they help you so much in days of swirling thoughts!!
    much love to you Claudia and respect.
    lesleyxxxx

  16. Linda and Lesley, thank you as well. I’m glad not only to help others through what I’ve learned but also for the online friendships we have made here. Hopefully we’ll see each other through a lot of personal success stories, not just in moving on from toxic relationships but in other aspects of our lives as well. Claudia

  17. Gary,

    Nice job getting the link up! Kel

  18. Gary, how did you put the video in instead of just a link? Can you teach us how to do that too? Claudia

  19. Claudia: Speaking of Dangerous Liaisons and psychopathic bonds sexual or otherwise I wanted to share something a friend of mine (former victim as well) told me of a friend who was married for over 20 years and discovered that during the course of those years her husband had liaisons with over 200 women; some of these women he was with during the ENTIRE course of his marriage, some shorter, 5-6 years, as well as many many one nighters – He would recycle THEM ALL naturally some of them were totally destroyed and shocked to not even know he was married; his wife started to find papers he would drop with names and numbers because she DID NOT SUSPECT HIM AT ALL, even when she found the names and numbers she thought it was maybe work related because he treated her well and had a normal sex life with her. She FINALLY busted him when she called one of these numbers and a woman answered, her husband was out of town that weekend and he never answered his cell phone out of a hunch she called the number a woman answered and she asked if her husband was there and the woman said, NO, but he just left. This man drove 200 miles to see this OW even when his wife confronted him and said, where were you, and why were you in such and such a town he DENIED it and said she was crazy he would never cheat on her and she then said so did you and Carol Smith have a good time?(whatever her name was) and in a blink of an eye he started in with, it didnt mean anything, it was nothing, it will never happen again, bla bla bla This woman actually told the wife, yes your husband and I have been seeing each other for over 6 years and we love each other and there were HUNDREDS of others she discovered. naturally she divorced him and even three years later he expresses how his wife was the love of his life and would always want her back. Even though his behavior was pathological in nature he was always good to his wife and they had a good sex life, she NEVER SUSPECTED. I guess I should say he was GOOD TO HER UP FRONT there was never abuse up front of ANY KIND. I suspect though that this is how MANY of these psychopaths function; then you have your psychopaths that devalue and discard their partners on a regular basis. Anyone that can maintain SO MANY other relationships during the course of their marriage then come home as if nothing has happened has no remorse or conscience so CLEARLY the man was a psychopath to do this to his wife for over 20 years. This story made me realize it was really quite ignorant of me to have SO MUCH focus on my x-path’s partner she was just ONE in hundreds he has had a relationSHIT with during the course of their years together. It takes a really disturbed person to maintain so MANY relationships at the same time while married; a person that is destroying his wife’s life as well as the other unhealthy relationshits he keeps for years. DANGEROUS MEN and DANGEROUS LIAISONS!!!!

  20. Linda, what you just described is a textbook case! So many psychopaths behave this way, just some aren’t found out or hide better, that’s all. Claudia

  21. Linda,

    your friends case is the exception rather than the rule. Most psychopaths have a period when the mask slips and the devaluing sets in once the honeymoon is over. Either way, their deviancies are expressed in many different ways. I feel sorry for your friend and hope she got tested for STD’s because his behavior, while hidden was also extremely dangerous. Some women also don’t “recall” abusive incidents in the relationshit because they already feel so duped and stupid for having been involved in the first place, but I’ll bet you my bottom dollar your friend had some red flags out of that man, but IGNORED them as we all do. It’s pretty rare when a psychopath is that good at hiding his life, while also not devaluing his partner. Then there are women who suspect things and yet do not question and are utterly trusting. each situation is different.

    Either way this man will be destructive wherever he goes. She was the “love” of his life, translation: He got away with hiding his second life and she was a GREAT DUPE for all those years. That’s HIS perspective. She was a great cover. A lot of us are or were. Yea, I think he’s sorry he lost the cover, as well as the image while he carried on with all of those women. YUCK!

    I’ll never know all the things my ex was up to because he was INCREDIBLY sneaky! But his devaluing was not something he could hide as his entitlements were extreme. But a few psychopaths can, and as well, our denial can be top level stuff too. Kel

  22. Kelli, I could not agree with you more that blogging and sharing our stories is important if not priceless. It is the first tentative step towards our healing and growing, and offers us such a valuable life line towards recovering from our experience of a pathological relationship.
    Claudia, your new book trailor captures the danger that a pathological relationship brings into our lives; that being at the very least our emotional and psychological harm and devastation. this is only temporary of course, as we begin to pick up the pieces of our lives and gain true perspective on what it is that is truly important. Love to you all out there.

  23. Michael, we appreciate you and your input very much too! You picked up correctly on the fact I underscore the process of seduction. In the youtube trailer for the book, as in the book itself, I tried to emphasize the psychopathic luring strategies (how, whom and why they lure) because that is a key element. Needless to say, if psychopaths couldn’t lure people so effectively, there wouldn’t be as many victims. Claudia

  24. Claudia

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again..the luring phase is the most dangerous phase of all and keeps the victims either stuck in the relationshit or ruminating endlessly afterward.

    It is the ultimate weapon in a psychopaths arsenal, to pretend to give something good or that we are good for them, exceptional, a soul mate, only to turn it into devaluation and a slow destruction of ourselves and what we perceived as good. Because we are all good in heart, accepting that someone could be so evil in intent, is almost unbearable. Kel

  25. Michael,

    Love to you too! And I agree! Hope the book is coming along well! Kel

  26. Claudia,
    What I did to post video, I hit share from your original link. I copied the URL it gave me and pasted it to my address bar. that took me to the main Youtube site where I copied that URL and pasted it to the comment window and posted the comment. Hope that makes sense. I want to add also you really captured the feeling in the trailer. nice job. Looking forward to reading your book.
    Gary

  27. keli- There is indeed much to be said about the luring phase and its dangers because it is NOW and in the end that we suffer from it. I believe the youtube I have attached greatly captures the luring phase in how I VIEW HIM NOW, – http://youtu.be/XgnOQqLhrlw

    I am sorry everyone but I just had to try and give everyone a good laugh we all need it once and awhile – Today I laughed for the first time in months – It felt really good!!!!!

  28. Hey Michael!! Love to you too!! Hope you are ok. I think your commenst and posts are brilliant and they help me out loads, well everyone’s do really but you know what i mean.
    I’ve had a tough few weeks i have to say, but all of you always help me. Keli, I think everything they do is highly damaging. Though you are right, mine made me feel like i was so The One. even the night he told me it was over he had only two hours before said I was the one again. they are just so so damaging, and hurt you to the core. we shall all overcome one day i know it!!
    lesleyxxxxxxx

  29. Thanks Gary. It sounds like sharing a video rather than just its link is not so simple! Claudia

  30. Linda, that’s hilarious! What a strange bird! And when it puffs up it, the display looks… creepy. Claudia

  31. And the bird is named the Bird of Paradise….only the psychopathic human version turns out to just “give us the bird.” Not sure if that translates across cultures, but “the bird” is a vulgar finger symbol for eff you.

  32. Gary, I learned from you how to post videos in the comments section. Now I have to see if this applies to the posts themselves as well. Claudia

  33. Hey success!!! Alright!!!
    I’n not sure if I know what you mean by the posts themselves.?
    Gary

  34. Gary, I mean not only in the comments section, but also in the articles themselves. I tried the same technique and it didn’t work on the articles themselves. You can only post videos, apparently, in the comments section. But it’s better than not at all:). Claudia

  35. Lesley!

    You sound so much better! You really have grown personally and with your understanding of your ex and his games. This is good news for you! Yes, they ARE highly damaging, but we DO have the ability to work through it. Claudia made a good point to me tonight while emailing back and forth. The psychopathic bond is addictive. When we become addicted to something, we are recovering from that for life, like alcoholism or any other addiction. It is already a known fact that psychopaths change the brain chemistry of the victim in the luring phase and that this is reinforced through the intermittent reinforcement through the relationshit, in other words, “hot/cold”, “push/pull”….extreme high to extreme low…..he/she becomes our drug. Lately, I’ve often wondered if this addiction is not more intense than heroin and just as hard to break, for the cycles that the heroin addict or alcoholic go through during withdrawal are the same as what we all experience in going NC. I believe this is no less and now I can visualize the psychopath like a dirty needle with heroin in it that I’d just shoot up readily to get my fix while still sick in the addiction. I do believe we do become psychologically sick while we are with them. There is no way not to be when in intimate contact with a pathological. Recovery is life long. Not short term and we will all experience a set back from time to time, but even so, we have to still keep moving and healing and growing…

    I see that with all of you here. It’s so great to see! Stay positive Lesley! Hugs! Kel

  36. Linda,

    RE: your above post with the video. LOL!!! He was definitely “peacocking” wasn’t he? LOL!!! Hilarious! Kel

  37. Hey Gar,

    how ya doing today? Are you feelin any stronger? I do think of you from time to time and hope you’re doing ok, I feel for you because of your contact situation. Be strong! Kel

  38. All: I have been trying to process something these past few days; I was thinking back to when I mourned my parents deaths, the horrible loneliness I felt in their passing but knowing they lived a long long full life. I think now of how I am mourning the x-path; for if I can NEVER have contact with him again than he is dead to me. This person will never ever exist in my life again but this person really never existed to begin with so mourning the loss of him is only mourning the loss of a persona. This has been a strange concept to process, quite mind boggling trying to keep the facts into a healthy perspective. Letting go of someone that really never existed, some stupid fricking persona I fell in love with so deeply. I dont know how I will remember him months or a year from now maybe I will always just remember him for what he was, a psychopath nothing more and nothing less. he will probably remember me like he does a recliner that broke and he had to discard. Sheridan is right, “the psychopath experience is extremely traumatic” I know the worst is behind me still though I realize I am fairly fresh out of this and like any deep wound it must heal from within first; its difficult to know how very wounded I was from this and for him its business as usual he didnt even give it a second thought, on to the current, or next target. He was such a sick freak just whipped thru my life like a plague, dumped his sickness of me then left. Thats the only way I can describe it. x0 Linda

  39. Linda,

    It was just a persona. The concept is very difficult to wrap your mind around. But there comes a time when you will notice a shift happen, from him to you. I have found that even while learning about the psychopath has helped me tremendously in understanding HIM, I was still in intense pain because I had not yet turned the focus on understanding ME and what work I needed to do to get on with my life. I’ve been reading the Betrayal Bond again, now feeling that I can bear it. It calls for you to examine yourself and the reasons you were involved in an exploitative relationshit in the first place. There are lots of exercises to do in the book that help you tie the knots as to the why’s of your involvement and how to move on from it. IT doesn’t hurt anymore to look at it and read it now because I am ready to take responsibility for my life now and figure out what I need to do to become a healthier person (understanding boundaries and what will happen in the healing process). What i like about this book is that Dr. Carnes is honest about the process in that it won’t be FUN. And it’s NOT fun. But I do feel I have more control over my life now and that the psychopath has less and less. I’m learning how to love myself again, and with that, the intensity of him is fading the more I deal with me. Staying focused on him, my anger and rage at why he did what he did, doesn’t help me get better. I’m now noticing a shift in a different way. Instead of reading all about the psychopath, I’m reading more about how to heal. Things I can do that help me develop and keep my boundaries so I am not victimized this way ever again, by anyone, not just the psychopath. I’m noticing that the more I read about psychopaths (And I’ve got a stack of books with more on the way-lol) the more I sit spinning in his shit and not shifting to take care of my own. And there is A LOT to take care of! It’s a slow process, but is becoming a rewarding one. I don’t want to be in the “fun house” anymore, but I can tell you i went back there many times out of fear and stress because it was familiar, instead of taking the steps that I needed to do retreat, dump the relationshit and go through the pain of withdrawal. Part of that is facing yourself and oftentimes you realize through therapy and working on books like this, that there is much more pain underneath than about the psychopath at all. It really does take the burden off of you in swirling about him. He starts to fade, when you work on yourself. There are times I still struggle about my ex, but they are less and less, the more I focus on me and my life. He no longer matters, he’s not in it and I can happily say, that he will never be again. I don’t mourn his loss anymore. And that is a relief for me. You’ll get there when you’re ready. Hugs. Kel

  40. Linda, I think as time goes on, you’ll remember him for the person he is: a psychopath. But you’re right that mourning a relationship that never was with a person who was only playing games is more difficult. Because then you’re processing the unbelievable betrayal at the same time that you’re processing the end of the relationship. Claudia

  41. well said Keli, i think learning about all this stuff on paths really helps, the more you know then the more you can start to understand why people put up with them, the reasons behind how and why they hurt you and how you can be stronger (eventually, i think as i’ve always said it just takes each of us the time it takes us) and then you can start looking at you and your life and what you want to do, and leave them behind. support, time, talking about it, learning about it, it all helps.
    lesleyxxxx

  42. Kelli and Lesley, psychopaths identify people’s needs and fantasies: I suppose the mixture of the two could be called “longing.” They see what you’re longing for most in life, they mirror those longings (I want true love and passion too, etc etc) and then the distort them in the hallway of mirrors you described Kel, through deception, hiding their lives, gaslighting, all the mind games we’ve been discussing.

    Kel, you’re right that in shifting your focus from the psychopath and his mind games to longing inside you that cemented the psychopathic bond–without that longing, psychopaths could never seduce us–you are working on the aspects of you and your life that need to grow stronger and heal. That goes for any victim of psychopathic seduction. Each of us were lured by something we wanted, that we felt was missing, usually having to do with passion and excitement in our lives, which the psychopaths–who live only for fantasy and in fantasy–claimed to offer. Claudia

  43. Claudia

    What I’ve realized with my therapist is that while the longing remains in some respects, we’re making some ties into boredom. The simple life. The simple life is without a lot of self induced or other induced drama. When you’re spinning about the psychopath, you’re inducing and continuing the drama he created for you. Even though his games were evil, as was he, it was exciting at first, then anxiety provoking on a daily basis. Addiction requires that you leave yourself and everyone you love behind you. That isn’t an option for me anymore. I’m learning how to enjoy “boredom” ie: The simple life. I love it MORE than I love the drama created by my ex and I covet it so much, I’m doing everything I know possible to stay NC. I’m not willing to risk anything at all to have anymore drama in my life than what is already there, either through circumstances or whatever. Stress is an unavoidable aspect of life, but that is FAR different than the chaos and drama the psychopath brings. So, having been with him and now having been out almost a year now, is finally bringing me peace and a simple life. I’m as boring as boring gets these days. Spending time with my kids and grandkids that I missed while with him. He sucked so much energy and time out and away from me. that will never happen again. Ever. Who needs that kind of excitement and drama? I don’t, but when you ruminate and go into cog/dis, it brings back all that chaos and drama even while he/she is gone. It’s like the addiction is still present, but without the drug. At that point, the drug is in your head. But if life is not full in other ways and there is no growth, ruminating will be an ongoing torture. I don’t want that in my life anymore. He’s long gone. He needs to be long gone out of everything else too. Kel

  44. Claudia

    That’s why the betrayal bond book is so helpful. It helps you break the addiction. Kel

  45. Kel, as you point out, there’s a difference between excitement and passion. The psychopaths can only offer excitement during the honeymoon phase (because they love fresh conquests), which turns into drama (during the manipulation phase), and finally into anxiety (after the bait and switch, when you begin to see you’ve been conned by a very disturbed individual incapable of love). Afterwards some victims are left with an addiction to the emotional highs and lows, regardless of how destructive they were. And boredom is a manifestation of that addiction; the need for the adrenaline rush. The victims who can’t do without that are the ones who stay hooked on psychopaths. It’s very healthy to feel what you now feel, which is that a peaceful, drama-free life is what you need and want. At any rate, human life is always filled with natural highs and lows and dramatic. But it’s better to face life’s real challenges than to live in the destructive fantasy life created by a psychopath. Claudia

  46. Good posts! My therapist directed me to some websites on emotional sobriety. Sandra Brown recently did a series on living the peaceful life. Good stuff.

  47. Susan, thanks for letting us know about Sandra’s series. On that note I’d add that if you want to lead a more peaceful life, you must absolutely learn how to recognize not only psychopaths, but ALL personality disordered types. That’s why I’d also highly recommend (once again) Sandra Brown’s How To Spot a Dangerous Man Before You Get Involved, which I reviewed on this blog. It’s about dangerous men or women and about before or after you get involved with them. In it there’s a chapter devoted to the most dangerous social predator, the psychopath, but there are also chapters on other personality disorders that can be very harmful. There’s no peace EVER if you allow deeply disordered individuals into your life, no matter how stable you may be or try to be. Claudia

  48. Claudia,
    Congratulations on your new book! I look forward to reading it. Although I don’t comment a lot (I’m a pretty private person), I do read your blog on a regular basis and it has helped me tremendously. I have a psychopathic sibling who was horrible to me when my parents passed away. He was relentless, bringing many frivolous lawsuits against me, and lied in about me in court. Your articles have really helped me come to understand him much better (as well as the man I mentioned I was involved with who is also a psychopath). Thanks so much for your quest to educate people and raise awareness about these disordered individuals. I wish you much success!
    Laurie

  49. Hi Kelli,
    I’m posting her because There wasn’t a reply to your post. things are going OK, could be better but that’s how it goes dealing with a Cluster B. I have really noticed you are becoming pretty knowledgeable on the subject of psychopathy. Good for you. We all know education is key. there seems to be a lot to learn. and that education is critical to healing. Thank you for asking.
    Gary

  50. I would imagine that most of us here found this site and only became aware of psychopathy after it was too late. The damage has already been done. Visitors here are either trying to heal or still dealing with a psychopath. Information and awareness is extremely helpful for healing, but if you are still enmeshed with a psychopath, real help may still be needed. From my experience, doctors and lawyers will do nothing. From all that I’ve learned, the only way to stop a psychopath is to expose them. I know I wish someone would expose mine. I’m wondering if others would find this ‘service’ valuable? If anyone has any other ideas or ways to stop a psychopath, I’d love to hear them.

  51. Laurie, thank you. I’m glad my articles have helped. Claudia

  52. Chris, I would love nothing more than to expose my Cluster B ex. I had to appear in court today because she is taking me back for more support. I sat there while she lied through her teeth. I really didnt say anything because I knew it would not look good for me. When we went before the judge and was asked my side I received a real sense that he does not rule in favor of many fathers, by the way he talked to me. My ex even accused me of lying when I made a statement that was completely true but not in her favor. The court system is very unfair to the non Cluster B. In a sense they have a legal stage to perform on and I mean perform. My hands where completely tied. I couldn’t defend myself in a environment uneducated in personality disorders. Luckily for me she filed the wrong paperwork. We will have to go back which gives me more time to prepare.
    I have a question for everyone. What and the hell can I do to stop this woman. As time goes on and the more I learn the worse she gets. Her lies have just become blatant and she knows I cant do a damn thing about it. I think I may have to spend money I don’t have and hire a lawyer. any advise would be appreciated.
    Gary

  53. Chris, I think that you’re right most people who read psychopathy websites are involved with or, more likely, have been involved and severely hurt by a psychopath or another disordered personality. The only way around this is for this information to become mainstream knowledge and part of health education in high school as well. We’re all working on that, but it also takes national media attention–a spotlight on this subject–which is up to the media more than our collective efforts. I don’t agree, however, that exposing individual psychopaths is the best route unless you can prove they were engaged in illegal activities and take legal action against them. Psychopaths love attention. Even negative attention is better to them than no attention. I think exposing the problem of psychopathy in general and informing ourselves and others is crucial. I think doing what we can to change the law to incorporate psychopathy tests in relevant situations is important as well. This is what you have mentioned. But giving individual psychopaths a lot of negative attention usually doesn’t solve any problems and is not likely to help the general public either. That’s just my opinion. Claudia

  54. Gary, in your situation I think it is appropriate–and even necessary–to expose your ex-wife’s lies and misconduct in court. Can you find a lawyer who will take on your case pro bono? Maybe you could search on the internet for some lawyers in family court who militate for fathers’ rights as well, since in custody cases the bias still seems to be towards mothers (but not like it used to be). Do you have documentation that proves her lies? It’s important not to allow this to be merely a he said she said, but to bring in all the evidence you have, remain calm despite provocations, and present it as well as you can, preferably with the aid of a lawyer who won’t charge too much or does it pro bono. Claudia

  55. Claudia, I have to agree and disagree about exposing individual psychopaths. I agree with your points as to why not to. I disagree because of my anger towards my ex. Anger is a very powerful emotion and giving my current situation tends to take control. Do I want to expose her? Yes. is it the right thing? probably not. But that’s emotion in play. Again a very confusing emotion filled desire or response to a cluster B effecting my emotional well being.
    I would like to see law schools require students of law to be educated in psychopathy. After all they are the ones that are supposed to protect us legally from the personality challenged. The legal system has the ability to set a precedence to help protect others. From what I’ve experienced they (using they very loosely being I don’t know for sure, only my experience and those of others I’ve heard) buy into the mask very easily.
    Gary

  56. Gary, I understand your justified anger and I felt it as well. But if you act on it it’s likely to backfire. I agree about the legal system needing to incorporate information about psychopathy and personality disorders in general. I think the Hare Checklist has made headway, but there needs to be more such information brought to bear in noncriminal cases as well. Can you channel your anger in a constructive manner? By this I mean gathering all the evidence against your wife systematically, so her deception will be exposed in court. Then also looking online to see if there are any organizations that try to help, perhaps pro bono, fathers’ rights, so you can get a good family law lawyer on your side. I doubt that you’ll find any lawyers with a lot of knowledge of psychopathy in particular, but you will find therapists who have links to family courts who can suggest to you the right lawyer. My therapist, with whom I first discussed my situation and my ex’s psychopathic personality back in 2007, did. When you feel angry, try writing all the lies and misconduct your wife engaged in down, and try to gather evidence against her that would hold up in court, for your custody case. And also use google as your resource for information about lawyers who might help you with very little or no money. Anger can be used (more or less) destructively or constructively. If it’s used mainly destructively it usually backfires. Let us know what you find, so we can try to help you as much as we can for afar, at the very least with emotional support. Claudia

  57. Chris,

    I did expose mine. It just made him hide better and more manipulative. If they have money to back them up, it’s worse. Mine had that and a very effective lawyer. While my exposure cost him his marriage and his first real target after the divorce (he was after someone who had money), he still was a success. There are always victims. He is now married to a woman with lots of money and status. Just what he wanted. With no conscience, other than prison, I don’t think exposure affects them at all and while revenge is nice in the moment, it takes more than one that understands psychopathy, in fact a whole system willing to back up your exposure, to make it worth the effort in trying. without a conscience, as Martha Stout states in her book, “The Sociopath Next Door” without a conscience, you can do anything….Kel

  58. Claudia, thank you for your response. I do have some documentation. I am going to do a search on the net and locally to see who or what is available. It really is sad. technically our divorce should have bean cut and dry. initially that is why we did not use lawyers. Unfortunately now our son may have to become involved also. She has become pretty desperate. Lets say her mask is fully off and all you can see is skull and cross bones. You know I’m really pissed but part of me still feels a bit sorry for her. that seems so wrong..
    Gary

  59. Gary,

    It’s actually RIGHT to expose a psychopath, the problem is that there is a SEVERE lack of education regarding the whole set of Cluster B’s. Also, I believe that the legal system is FULL of cluster B’s so they have more “incentive” to prevent any education whatsoever about the subject. Many victims are subsequently victimized twice, if not more, by the psychopath in the relationshit and then by the legal or medical profession in the aftermath. Kel

  60. Gary,

    Dont feel sorry for someone who could care less about you and only wants to WIN. Now you’re talking about your children’s involvement. It is your responsibility to do whatever is necessary to protect them, even if it’s against the other parent. There are attorneys that help men who are seeking custody of their children. Do a methodical search, give up any “feeling” about this woman. It’s in Sheridan’s book that is said that to beat a psychopath, you have to act like one. I think there is truth to that.

    She could care less about you or your child together. You can do it, Gary, do all you can. Kel

  61. Susan,

    I too receive Sandra’s articles each week, it’s called “Living the Gentle Life”

    Nothing more true and it’s a great series, as well as the one she has going right now too. Kel

  62. Claudia

    It is absolutely astounding to me that with as many victims as the psychopaths rack up in their lives, past and present, so little is done about it. One psychopath can have hundreds, if not thousands of victims and it’s not just limited to partners as we well know.

    I’m actually thinking of the Tea Party right now, ironically enough. How did that get started and how did they gain so much power in the political system? Why is it that we, as survivors, cannot do the same and gain as much momentum? Victory in NUMBERS. Perhaps we are approaching this the wrong way and perhaps we are prevented, from doing so out of our own fears. Kel

  63. Kel, a big difference is that the Tea Party gets so much money from wealthy sources. Money is power. Most victims of psychopaths aren’t rich, and even the ones that used to be rich, were conned out of their money. We’re doing what we can to bring this subject to the public awareness, given our resources and media connections. The media, incidentally, also seems to be interested in this subject when it brings attention: i.e. high profile crime cases. This also boils down to revenues. The numbers that count most in getting attention to anything have $ signs on them.

    Gary, it’s good that your desire for vengeance is curbed by your compassion. Because really, it will be your heart and responsibility to yourself and your child that will drive your case against your ex-wife. Claudia

  64. To beat a psychopath you have to act like one. You know I have actually thought about that. Trying to handle this like a normal person is very hard. You know a conscience is a very hard thing to over rule. Even when dealing with my ex. I think feeling sorry for her is me putting myself in her shoes and how I would feel not to have any emotion or empathy. That’s why I think it seems so wrong. here’s a pathetic emotionless person and through all the destruction I find empathy for her. Dont get me wrong she is a good for nothing puke. and my empathy for her is short lived. Just part of my emotional roller coaster,
    Gary

  65. Claudia

    While that may be reality, insofar as $, its just another reason we give NOT to pursue it further. It gives the psychopaths a “win” I don’t believe that. It also assumes that the wealthy are all psychopaths. How do we know what can be done when it’s not been done ie: like the tea party has done? There is strength in NUMBERS and the numbers of survivors far outweigh any amounts of money or psychopaths. Interesting to think about and not give up on.

    Claudia, with regards to your response to Gary, I agree and I disagree. Psychopaths have no compassion whatsoever. It’s unfortunate, but I think it’s true that one has to be as ruthless as they are in fighting back. This iS the stance of compassion we can have for our children. My therapist the other day told me that having boundaries IS compassion, even if those that would disagree with that or have a different perspective, would be those who would perceive themselves as “not getting what they want” out of me, whatever that may be.

    Gary, compassion, in your case I believe, means fighting on behalf of your son for what’s right. If you lose, you lose, but at least you’ll know you gave it your best shot. It also represents compassion for yourself in asserting your boundaries and letting her know you’re not going to take her shit anymore, even if you lose, at least you stood up to her the best way you could, but more so, you fought for the human rights of your son, which a psychopath, obviously, and as you can see, a psychopath will not do.

    Sandra Brown says they are sicker than we are smart. True DAT, but I think if you did nothing, you’re not showing yourself or your son the compassion you both deserve in asserting your rights and your son’s rights in fighting a lying, nasty woman who is only out for herself and YOUR money. Get angry, Gary. Very. And find good, productive ways to assert yourself. Give it your best shot! Kel

  66. Gar,

    Re: Your above post that I can’t respond to, in your response to me, HANG.IN.THERE!

    You are your own best advocate, as well as your son. You can DO this. Try taking even a sliver of any compassion you have for her or feeling sorry for her and turn it to YOURSELF. You deserve it! Kel

  67. Claudia: I believe you are right there you have to process that the relationship has come to an end but they are not the normal reasons as per say a healthy relationship would have that involved the other person being REAL. I agree with what Gary stated, you almost have to think like them in order to remove yourself from them. x0 Linda

  68. Kelli: Sometimes Kelli ITS OK to not always look internally for our discomfort and sometimes my pain just plain stems from what HE DID and sometimes I just need to vent that. I HAVE been doing work on myself this past month but its NOT ALWAYS about that sometimes its just about trying to process a predator preyed on our vulnerabilities period. I will NEVER go back at this stage of my progress out of fear or stress or familiarity I AM WAY PAST THAT as opposed to a year ago. Everytime I express a difficult moment its not always about ME, sometimes its just coming to terms with what he was. x0 Linda

  69. Kel, I was saying the same thing to Gary: the sense of compassion should be directed towards his son and himself, not his wife, to give him the emotional impetus to gain custody.

    But with respect to the Tea Party, there’s no comparison between that and psychopathy victims. Although there are so many millions of victims of psychopaths a) by far most don’t know they are such victims or that their loved ones are psychopathic and b) they don’t have any corporate sponsors giving them tens of millions of dollars, plus very powerful politicians behind them (the Tea Party is not just a grass root movement as it seems) to unite in a highly effective campaign. But anything each of us can do to bring public awareness to this problem and spread the word about psychopathy we should do. Claudia

  70. Linda, I can relate to what you say about the psychopathic bond being so bizarre, underhanded and malicious that you can’t process it in any normal way (and it takes a lot longer to grasp it and come to terms with it). Claudia

  71. Claudia,

    My reference to the tea party was one that was only in comparison in NUMBERS to which it has gained momentum. I understand the differences. There has to be a way to bring this to the attention of sources that have a willingness to broaden the scale of public education. There is a radio program I listen to each morning (it’s nationwide) on a political spectrum, to which the radio show host was discussing psychopaths in politics within the context of an interview with an expert in political pychology, as it were. THAT is the kind of open door we need! I was so happy to hear the interview and the MANY callers who called and AGREED with the concept of psychopathy in politics. There are more who are aware, I think, than we can understand. One of the things this radio show host shared with his audience was this,”If you think the political system is crazy making, YOU”RE RIGHT”, trust your instincts on this one too, it is FULL of psychopaths!”

    Maybe you could send your book to him, Claudia? Kel

  72. Gar,

    That’s cog/dis at work. If you can, work really hard to get past that. If you can try to see her as she is, even if your empathy is short lived, you’re going to be able to handle this in a much more balanced way, but giving her any benefit of the doubt with emotions, is a mistake and what has kept us all “spinning” about our ex’s. Try not to let yourself go there. Save your empathy, even a minute amount, for someone who is deserving of it. She’s a waste of your time. Kel

  73. Well today was a better day, yesterday I was fresh from court. Today is proof for me how important education is. If I did not know what I know now I probibly would have not slept and my mind would have bean continually running the event through my head. Kelli and Claudia you helped a lot. One thing I like about this site is the honesty. That honesty helps to keep my thoughts honest. even reading other people’s posts and the responses to them is sobering in this drunk illusion of dealing with a Cluster B. Yesterday I fell off the wagon a bit but I quickly climbed back on. That was the first time I had bean in the same room with IT in a long time. I have noticed If something happens now I deal with the emotion and try and control it. Where a few months ago i let the emotions control me. Ahhh the road to recovery from a sick individual. Hope everyone is well. Claudia you’ve got a good thing going here.
    Gary

  74. Gary, I’m so glad that you’re feeling better and that we were helpful to you. There’s not much we can do to help one another concretely from afar, but we can support each other emotionally and give each other honest advice. Claudia

  75. Gar,

    So glad to hear you’re having a better day! I hope that your days continue to get better for you and that you’ll find a way to best cope with your psychopath and her attempts to derail you financially and as a father. It can be very disconcerting.

    As far as this blog goes, well, you’re right, she does have something good going here. I know I can sound very harsh at times, and I am only coming from my own perspective, being a strong personality, and I’m not always right either, lol! But I will be honest and sometimes a good boot to the behind helps put you back into perspective. Claudia does that for me from time to time and it’s deserved. I enjoy sharing what I’ve learned. I hope that it helps someone else and that I don’t hurt someone with what comes across as harsh at times, but I DO care for all of you here and am learning more and more about psychopathy at lightning speeds. I’m researching, studying and working on my transfer at school to obtain a master’s in psychology. I’m soaking up everything I’m learning, applying it to my life and trying to help others. Currently, I’m thinking about ways to create awareness in the public sector, even if in baby steps and locally. It’s amazing that as you move through the healing process, how it progresses, from them, to us, to others….a burning desire for revenge, to a burning desire to help others or educate the public so as not to be a victim of the disordered. I’m actually hearing more everyday in the media, the word psychopath/sociopath. This is a great, GREAT thing!

    You have a great, compassionate heart, Gar. I hope that you will continue to learn to have the greatest of all compassion for yourself and your children. Trust me when I tell you that YOUR influence over your psychopath ex’s will have HUGE value later on in their lives. Children are remarkably perceptive and they often know more than they tell us. Tell your children the truth. Continue to show them what love is and looks like, while also teaching them about how to protect themselves. It’s a balance, but one well worth trying to achieve. Kel

  76. Gary,

    I know exactly what you are going through. I am convinced that my ex and her father are psychopaths. So far in my case, they have spent over $1 Million in legal fees to have 2 partners in a law firm show up in court every single time. We’ve had well over 20 hearings in 3 years so far.

    The judge in my case has been made aware of the lies and the manipulation and I think even knows that my ex and her father are psychopaths, but refuses to do anything about it. After 20 hearings, I filed a petition for a guardian ad litem for my children based on evidence of domestic violence and lies she had told my son. The Judge denied the petition because he knew that by granting an attorney with the power to speak to witnesses, teachers, neighbors, etc. all the lies would be revealed and would prove that he had been manipulated. I am actually being bullied into silence about my concerns for the emotional welfare of my children by the Judge.

    I have been looking everywhere for an attorney that is not afraid to speak truth to power and has successfully used psychopathy as grounds for modifying custody. I have found one in Florida and California if you happen to be in one of those states. They can’t help me in Virginia.

    The Conspiracy of Silence that Dr. Cleckley wrote about in his book Mask of Sanity still exists. Doctors and Judges simply do not wish to label parents as psychopaths.

    Let me know if you would like help exposing your psychopath. I would be glad to help.

  77. Gary, I’ve been reading your posts and you have my total understanding for what you are going through. It must be awful to have to go through all that stress with a path. But you are a well balanced, loving person and you will be strong enough to get through all of this I have no doubt. This side and everyone on it can help so much in all different ways.
    much love and hope it all goes ok
    lesleyxxx

  78. site i meant to say!! hahaha

  79. Chris,

    This may seem a stupid question, but of the attorney’s you were able to locate, in other states, they cannot help you because they are not licensed in your state? I know you’ve probably exercised all the options, but more out of my curiosity, is there anyway to get another judge? take it to a higher level court? Kel

  80. Chris and Gary,

    You might want to check Sandra Brown’s site too. I think there are resources there that can hook you up legally. It’s safe relationships magazine.com. Kel

  81. Kelli,

    Yes, they attorney’s I found are not licensed to practice in my state, but they also choose not to go outside of their state. With regards to the Judge. I filed a motion to remand to case out of Circuit Court and into the Juvenile Domestic Relations Court and my attorney filed a motion to recuse the Judge. He denied both of them.

    The Judge could aleviate all my concerns and remove all doubts about the psychological condition of my ex-wife by ordering a psychological evaluation but he wont. If it came back with ASPD or psychopathy, he would have to change all his previous rulings.

    Unfortunatly, I am coming to the conclusion that I am not going to ever get justice. No one wants to stand up for my rights or my children, even though my case would be a slam dunk. There is a mountain of evidence and witnesses that can confirm the patterns of behavior and personality, in addition to a traumatic brain injury to my ex-wife’s prefrontal cortex, which could indicate ‘acquired psychopathy’. The Judge simply refuses to look at it.

  82. Chris,

    Wow, I don’t know what to say! How is it possible to be so screwed over without any “out” at all? I’m frustrated FOR you.I was looking up parental alienation attorneys in your state. There are four, and on one of the attorney’s websites, the reasons stated as to parental alienation IS PERSONALITY DISORDERS. I just can’t believe, for you, that you can’t get justice. There just has to be a way! Kel

  83. Chris, is this the only judge that has any jurisdiction over your custody case? Can you appeal this case to another court? And what about those lawyers you mentioned who are informed about psychopathy from the other states? Claudia

  84. Claudia, gary, Kelli and all; some interesting and helpful threads here that ive been missing out on due to a heavy work load of late. Gary, I can empathise with your position; just a matter of 3 weeks after a courst hearing that arose between my ex psychopath (and I feel confident now refereing to her a psychopath, as my research progresses i’m finding lots of evidence that supports borlerlines are female sub-criminal psychopaths), and her ex because she mas mucking him about with access arrangements, she slept with this guy she seduced under my nose. She asked me to go along to court with her, probably as some kind of manipulative strategy. She represented herself and sat rambling about her sons best interests, and I sat there knowing fine well it was all about her own agenda, and power and control over her ex. The only way she could get to him was through his son. Her ex partner had is solicitor with him who had a huge bundle of corresponadance in front of him. as she rambled they shook their heads, no doubt knowing that she was contradicting herself.
    Claudias advice is sound; record everything, dates times, witnesses if any, keep a thorough log.
    The other thread above re exposing our exes for the personality disordered Cluster B’s / psychopaths they are; I can understand this because of the horrendous injustice we are left to deal with as we pick up the pieces knowing full well they are unscathed and unaffected. I think this is one of the many reasons we are left traumatised, because we wake up the fact that what wee believed was one of the most, if not the most special relationships we ever had, transpires to be the most utterly meaningless non relationship that defies our imagination. You cannot hurt a psychopath’s feelings; they are incapable of sustaining any feeling for very long; and any emotion they do experience is superficial, numb, and a faint fleeting whisper. Imagine having the volume turned down on your emotions so low you can barely feel them. Such is the emotional landscape of a borderline, borderpath, narcissist, narcissistic psychopath…….or in one word…a psychopath. Psychopathy is an emotional disorder first and foremost. Claudia I agree with your comment above; the majority of osychopaths are sub criminal and sub clinical- these are often referred to as succesful psychopaths, and these are in some respects the most insidious as they are highly adept at walking between the rain drops. Michael

  85. Michael, I appreciate your thoughtful post. Walking between raindrops: what an apt metaphor for psychopaths’ slippery ways and ability to get away with harmful behavior. I think that any test, be it Hare’s Psychopathy Checklist or any other, is necessary but not sufficient for deciding things like prison parole cases or custody cases (particularly since psychopaths can lie glibly and act well). I think that such a test in combination with proving their pattern of toxic behavior is a better indicator of their personality disorder. No test by itself, no matter how accurate or scientific, can be a substitute for showing harmful behavior (to one’s family or society in general). Claudia

  86. Claudia I could not agree with you more. This is what seems to me to be the gap in knowledge, awareness, and research. If most psychopaths are sub-criminal and sub-clinical, i.e. a difficult pool or sample population to recruit in research (and there have been some brave research attempts); where do we start? I think that this research needs to begin not with psychopaths themselves, but with their victims. This is a bit of a circular argument I know, because how can people know that they have been involved with a psychopath if they dont know the remotest thing about psychopathy. Sandra Browns study truly is groundbreaking. Michael.

  87. Michael, interviewing victims is a great start because psychopaths dupe others easily and may even pass lie detector tests, but their victims can attest a pattern of abusive/harmful behavior. This is very important to show/prove. Claudia

  88. Michael,

    I completely agree with everything you’ve said in your above posts. I think Sandra Brown’s work is by far the MOST significant in interviewing the victims of psychopaths so as to formulate a list of recurring behaviors/traits that support the disordered ones. I don’t think there IS a better reliability than the victims themselves. Another ground breaking effort in research has come from Dr. Hare and others, on the scientific side of psychopathy who have linked brain imagery and deficits in the brain, the frontal cortex and specifically the amygdala. It is unfortunate that those tested are of the criminal variety, however, despite this, it is VERY important because I’m betting you that those that are “successful” are also CRIMINAL in some respects, just not CAUGHT. What they do to victims is criminal because there is never any justice and no hardcore “proof”. The system definitely needs to change. How do we make that happen? that is the ultimate question. Victims have long since been irrelevant when it comes to any kind of justice and passed off as crazy, insane, or the problem.

    You also make a point that is so incredibly important and one I am researching in that it is an EMOTIONAL disorder. When you think about that in a deep way, it becomes very profound in meaning. The brain circuitry goes directly to this lack of function. So much more research needs to be done in this way. It’s unfortunate but I think that hardcore research of brain dysfunction will be considered as “proof” of the disorder rather than a victim’s experience. We are a long way out from that just yet.

    I’ve been thinking a lot about how to get the word out. What kind of advocacy could be done, even if in just my own neighborhood. I think it needs to start within the domestic violence community. Right after my relationshit broke up, I sat in a domestic violence group. ALL of the women there had also walked out of a relationshit with a disordered one. One of the women there, I gave more insights to about the disorder and she’d just stare at me and say, “You know so much about this, you’ve really helped me understand my ex. You should be a therapist!”. but ya know what, Michael? ALL of us could be a therapist after this experience! And that’s where I’m headed. I’m passing a copy of claudia’s book to the woman that runs our local shelter. It’s not enough just to make sense of abuse, it has to be more in understanding the disordered one’s as apart of recovery FROM abuse. Kel

  89. Claudia there is evidence acruing that psychopaths do in fact experience anxiety and therefore frequently fail lie detector tests. There is some confusion around whether this is because the bulk of research has taken place amongst criminal psychopaths, and therefore cannot be genralised to non criminal psychopaths. It would seem judging by the evidence ,that psychopaths are subject to the same principles of “I must survive” as the rest of us. Psychopaths have to do this without emotionaly connecting or relating with anyone.

  90. Michael,

    They DO know the difference between right and wrong. They just don’t care, however, most of them are also very paranoid of exposure and if this is likely, anxiety is likely, but it’s not like the kind of anxiety we experience as a result of depth of EMOTION. My ex had anxiety, but only with regards to exposure as this was a FEAR based anxiety, all about him and no one else. Kel

  91. Kelli,

    What names did you find for personality disorders in Virginia? I did not find any when I looked. I would like to reach out to them.
    Also, you are correct about the source of Parental Alienation Syndrome being a personality disorder. It is actually very well documented. The leading expert in ‘High Conflict’ divorced, Janet Johnston, wrote a report in 1994 stating that one or both parties that require the Judge to decide visitation have a ‘severe psychopathology’. I presented this report to the Judge in my case and asked that he order a psychological evaluation of my ex-wife after he ordered me to get one and the evalutator found “no reason” why I should not see my children.

    I think it was at that point he realized that my ex-wife may actually have a personality disorder and has refused to order one or allow any third party intervention that might reveal that he was fooled. He is now effectively in a conflict of interest, as a personality disorder in my ex-wife would require that he over turn his previous rulings. This is why he has tried to bully me into silence by denying me visitation with my own children for no justifiable reason.

    As far as I can tell, the only way for me to obtain justice is for an attorney familiar with personality disorders and unafraid to speak truth to power to represent me and force the court to properly consider psychopathy as the source of conflict in our case. I have been looking and have yet to find one.

    Claudia,
    The Judge in my case has denied a motion to remand the case to the Juvenile Domestic relations Court, a Petition for a guardian ad litem (an attorney to represent the children), and a motion to recuse himself from the case. He is clearly biased and does not want a personality disorder to be revealed for the reasons mentioned above.

    At this point, I am filing a complaint against the Judge for bias and predjudice, in the hopes that the Judicial Review Board will remove him from the case.

    I have not been granted equal protection, as I was ordered to undergo a psychological evaluation, but my ex-wife was not.

    My case is a slam dunk for any attorney wanting to pick up the sword and fight this battle. The patterns of behavior and personality exist in my ex-wife and my father in law. My father in law was convicted of acccomplice to murder and fooled the jury into sentencing him to probation instead of the death penalty. He also has been in constant legal conflict with over 100 lawsuits in the County where he lives. His daughter was obviously genetically predisposed to psychopathy and grew up being socialized by him. Additionally, she suffered a truamatic brain injury to her prefrontal cortex. All of these facts were left out of a custody report by Dr. Stanton Samenow, a respected ‘expert’ in criminal and child psychology. It was only after I came to this site that I realized that the information he ignored and left from his report were giant red flags for psychopathy.

    When I filed a complaint against Dr. Samenow with the Board of Psychology detailing all of the above, even the Board of Psychology looked the other way stating in their letter to me that ‘it does not appear that there is sufficient evidence to determine that a violation of law or regulation governing the practice of psychology may have occured’.

    Unfortunately for psychopaths, a reputation, facts, evidence and witnesses can only be ignored for so long.

    Chris

  92. Chris, that’s incredible! It goes to show how well psychopaths can manipulate the system when the healthy person (you) was ordered to have a psychological evaluation while the personality disordered individual (your wife) was not. But I’m not surprised to hear about this. Thank goodness you are extremely resilient and don’t give up. With this kind of energy, I hope you prevail not just in your case, but also to establish some kind of precedent judgment that will help others in your situation. Claudia

  93. Kelli, that’s very true. Like any other emotion psychopaths experience, they are superficial and fleeting and numbed down. Once their ephemeral emotions have passed, they forget they ever experienced them- hence no emotional memory, emotional growth, therefore no real learning or spiritual growth. Anxiety is a primordial emotion linked to survival fight or flight mechanisms- a basic proto emotion if you like. Thats as about as emotionally rich as they get! Psychopaths do not suffer from repressed emotions, as the psychoanalytical tradition / therapists might propose. They have a hard wiring problem that results in a lack of depth and sustainability of emotion Michael

  94. Michael, very well said. I think if they sometimes manage to pass lie detector tests, days, months or even years after they’ve committed a crime, it’s because they forget the thrill of having committed that crime–their main emotion in the moment–and can remain calm and emotionless afterwards. They’ve got no past, no future, just a series of malicious thrills (usually tied to taking advantage of others) and petty frustrations (tied to not always getting away with it or not always getting what they want) in the present. Claudia

  95. Michael,
    Excellent point. This goes to one of the red flags in which I missed, but was very much aware of at all times, which is their ability to argue with you about something and then five minutes, hours, days later, act like it never happened. Because in their minds, with their emotions so shallow, it really DIDN’T happen. I saw this very early on and it was crazy making confusion all the way! It bothered me so much, I now believe it was the one of the earliest red flags I should have adhered too. Kel

  96. Claudia,

    Yet another excellent point! Living in the moment also goes to the ability to act like nothing ever happened, whether good or bad. With my ex, this was so seriously obvious, I don’t know how he could possibly curb this particular behavior, as it was woven into everything he said and/or did. There is no possibility for change and would be a red flag wherever they want, because they seriously do NOT have emotional recall. Great point, Claudia! Kel

  97. Michael, I’ve been doing a ton of research with regards to scientific studies and psychopaths. Have you run across anything that has been studied in this area of emotional deficits and brain imagery/circuitry? I’ve seen much of it already, just curious as to whether or not I’ve missed anything new. Kel

  98. Kelli,

    I may have mentioned this before, but the best work I have seen is being done by Dr. Kent Keihl and Dr. James Blair. There is also a great neuroscientific journal called ‘Cortex’ that has the latest research on psychopathy and the ethical implications.It is kind of expensive though. I also set a Google alert for psychopathy that emails me anything new on the internet.
    Chris

  99. Chris, thanks for bringing to our attention the research of Dr. Kent Keihl and Dr. James Blair. If you’re ever in direct touch with them, you can invite them to do some guest articles on the subject of psychopathy and neuroscience, written for a general audience, on this blog as well. The deeper we can understand this subject, the better. And all the evidence points to the fact that psychopaths have different brain wiring; it’s not just a matter of bad upbringing. Often, they’re brought up in very good environments, filled with love and a great education, and still turn out evil. Claudia

  100. Chris,

    Thanks for the info. I’ve been to the site and it IS expensive and beyond my ability to purchase, but I’ll tell you what, the article titles alone are fascinating!! I would LOVE to be able to access and read them. If you have this access, it must be helpful and I hope a source of validation for you!

    I am still very upset about your case. I’m upset for Gary as well. There are too many examples of psychopaths who slime their way through the system.

    I think Claudia’s kind invitation to have a neuroscience perspective via this blog and articles is fantastic. From what I understand of Sheridan, he doesn’t much care for the brain explanation as this does not resolve the issue of lack of conscience, something that cannot be studied visually with research. while this is true, it brings up another never ending source of controversy and, I personally believe, another reason for MORE research. I DO like the brain explanation. It validates the hypothesis that the psychopath CANNOT change. Where the conscience comes into play with all of this is another story for another day.

    In studying psychology, research has become a very important part of my studies. I can read it and understand it. This field is fascinating and intriguing on many levels. I wonder, since our society is more apt to listen to facts, versus hypotheticals or “believe” the victims of this disorder, if perhaps the brain explanation through research, COMBINED with stories of victims, that this may perhaps be what is really needed to implement changes to the medical, therapeutic and judicial systems. What is your perspective on this? Chris, Michael? Kel

  101. Kelli, here is an interesting article I came across that may interest you, or anyone for that matter.

    . http://aladinrc.wrlc.org/bitstream/1961/7729/2/FinalCapstone.pdf

    it has to do with genes and the relationship between addiction and psychopathy.
    Gary

  102. Kelli there is an excellent text- the handbook of psychopathy which has contributions by Blair and many others. There is much indepth information re the emotional constitution of psychopaths; I purchased it on amazon, and from what i have read so far the evidence is clear that there are physiological and anatomical issues that are central to the emotional deficits of psychopaths. Interestingly emotional and memory pathways are interwoven, and actually influence how information and experience are stored, in emotional themes or stories if that makes sense. Psychopaths have less organised memory pathways because they are not pegged to emotional experience; this is one of the key reasons they contradict themselves,and if they feel under pressure, their hands move in brisk beats because emotional conversation alludes them and they become lost and have difficulty weaving their story into a coherent one. this is strongly related to borderline pathology and guess what, the same brain neural pathways, and the amygdala are also involved with borderlines! They literally have no emotional memory or little understanding of emotional language. Kelli, this is the primary reason psychopaths and borderlines hit the reset switch as though events never happened. They quite literally cannot follow a relationship plot! Kinda weird stuff. More superficial relationships, e.g friends, aquaintences, work colleagues, you would’nt notice. In more intimate relationships / partnerships, these anomolies eventually surface. Michael

  103. It is worth remembering though that psychopaths are not devoid of all emotion. Their deficits of emotion are that they experience superficial emotion, their emotions lack depth, consistency, and spectrum. A robust signpost that we have experienced a relationship with a psychopath is you end up constantly asking yourself, and them for that matter – “what the hell happened to how you felt yesterday?”

  104. Michael, that’s right. The way I’d characterize the psychopath’s emotion is: intensity without depth. They can have very extreme highs or rushes of desire, pleasure or anger. But they lack depth and therefore also stability. Claudia

  105. ALL:

    EXPLAINING THE “WTF!” MOMENT WHICH SUDDENLY ARRIVES.

    Invented Personas to Manipulate Others
    Psychopaths are a different version of themselves for every person they interact with. They also have ‘group personas’ for family, organisational and workplace interaction.

    Highly Unreliable/Broken Promises
    Psychopaths will make the most incredibly ambitious plans including you as their right hand man or woman then, on a whim, discard those plans and move on to some other crusade that excludes you. Victims often alter their own life plans to help the psychopath reach their imaginary goals, resulting in appalling emotional, psychological and financial chaos for the victims when the psychopath moves on.

    Idealisation Followed by Cold Rejection
    At the height of their idealisation of you, the psychopath will show you obsessive ‘love,’ care and attention. However, once they feel they have you where they want you — or the relationship has ended — if you collapsed in front of them on the street they would simply step over you as if they’d never met you and continue on their way. Outrageous smear campaigns against the discarded victims to falsely portray them as psychologically unstable, self-serving liars or abusers are often undertaken by psychopaths following the ending of a relationship.

    Becomes Obsessed with a Hobby, Cause, or Individual and then Loses Interest Instantly
    However, as soon as the relationship is established, the downward trajectory from idealisation of their victims and towards the inevitable devaluation and discarding begins in earnest. It may take weeks. It may take months. It often takes years. Nevertheless the psychopath always begins the devaluing of their victims as soon as the relationship is legitimised and is always on the lookout for an ‘upgrade’.

    Phoney Altruism
    Buys into either secular and non-secular belief systems to appear superior or enlightened. Will align themselves with ‘morally popular’ causes to make themselves appear enlightened and with a sense of deep moral wisdom and compassion. But it is always a pose; the psychopath’s association with these causes is a veneer to fool others into trusting them. It’s always fake; always an agenda.

    There is Nothing Real Behind the Persona
    Behind the months or years of perfectly-constructed performance by your psychopath is a nothing: a void, a blank, a hunger for something the psychopathic entity can never define. They now see no further benefit in playing this part and have moved on to a new role. It is just business. You are treated to a completely new, cold and emotionless persona. “Who is this stranger?” you will ask yourself over and over again. It is so bewildering.

    The Sudden Goodbye
    Then the psychopath finds an upgrade, changes their persona, will often change their look, hairstyle and even change the subject when they suspect others are figuring them out and you begin asking questions. “Hey, never mind that, it is lovely weather we are having!” Stated in a chipper and almost giddy manner (with an obvious underlying glibness). They are repressing the internal excitement at having pulled a fast one on you.

    The psychopath is literally filled with an adrenalin rush which lights up their whole facial expression with a gigantic self-satisfied grin – while the people the psychopath has stabbed in the back are expected to “get a life FFS…”

    The psychopath then mocks, ridicules and backstabs the people whom they “loved” only days prior and are now left in a state of chaos and confusion. Along with more glib statements as if “everything is OK”. Then the psychopath generally goes into hiding for a short while from their victims and emerges with a new life, relationship, in another country/region in a completely whole new persona and a new mask of manipulation and social sanity. This was the new persona which the psychopath had been clandestinely crafting behind the scenes.

    It is essentially an internal psychotic rampage hidden behind platitudes of “time to move on” and other superficial pontifications to hide that this is a completely deranged predator working their new “target” while dehumanising and discarding the ones whom they have no further requirement for. This is what leaves people in such shock – until they start to realise what they were in fact dealing with all along. A psychopath.

    Then your political hero, social activist, revolutionary, celebrity, cult-of-personality hero (persona) moves on as if the previous persona never existed – but it is always their undoing as they assume they are smarter than the people whom they have manipulated and fooled into their cult-of-personality. Which is why they always insult and mock the ones who supported, championed and loved them as the psychopath walks away. This is always their fatal flaw. Their testosterone-charged impulsive self destruct button. They get cocky and their God Complex goes into overdrive and everyone sees it for what it is. Endgame.

    BOTTOM LINE: “You are the One You Have Been Waiting For.” Stop Externalising Your Incredible Personal Potential to External Forces. Be Your Own Hero. – Thomas Sheridan

    I pay very close attention these days to what the bottom line is
    I will never allow a mentally disturbed external force to give me on a silver platter what is or was that was missing in my life. Linda

  106. Linda, thanks for taking the time to write out this very apt description of the psychopath’s emotions by Thomas Sharidan. I know Kel’s recommended his book very highly too. And we can all relate to this, since we’ve been through it. The psychopath I was with changed plans very suddenly, first to his wife, whom he had pressured for years to quit her job and set up a second home in another state. Once she did, he was already shifting priorities to divorcing her and being with me. By the time I agreed, a year later, he was shifting priorities yet again, enjoying having me and her–his main dominance bonds–in different states to see other women every night. In my novel, The Seducer, I describe the psychopath’s shifting emotions, priorities, and main dominance bonds via an analogy to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, or pinpointing simultaneously the location and the speed of an electron. If you try to pinpoint its location you change its speed. Whenever you try to identify and meet a psychopath’s immediate desires and priorities, they shift. The very act of you submitting to them makes them shift. Claudia

  107. Linda,
    “Psychopaths are a different version of themselves for every person they interact with. They also have ‘group personas’ for family, organisational and workplace interaction.” This one makes my stomach turn. especially looking back and noticing it but not acknowledging it till now.
    One think that I also have noticed with my ex, but not listed, is saying something one day and outright denying it the next. Then accusing me of being crazy because I am making up things. What really pisses me off is the glibness in the accusation..She truly believes it. I use to second guess myself in those situations… But not anymore! Thanks for posting that, that gave a clear insight.
    Gary

  108. Gary,

    I swear I think you and I were married to the same woman. My ex used to do that all the time. It was as of she had a selective memory. Another thing she did that drove me crazy was that she would take a completely innocuous statement I made and twist it into something it wasn’t. I’d then have to spend the next 20 minutes apologizing and explaining that was not at all what I meant. If you were to ask her if she did these things she would completely deny it. Its called ‘gaslighting’ and is also considered emotionally abusive.

  109. Michael

    Very interesting. So is it possible that psychopaths CAN love, even if not briefly or for that fleeting moment? I’m curious. I’m watching this behavior play out in my son. Ironically, also with his father to whom called me today (OMG! It’s the year of the ex’s I SWEAR as every single ONE of them has contacted me!). I can’t see how they can love, although there were moments I believed he really loved me. Or meant it when he said it. But it isn’t love when it isn’t CONSISTENT, it also contradicts any theories, such as with Sandra Brown’s, in that psychopaths cannot love, although they can experience a level of ATTACHMENT, and they cannot bond either. That the entire relationshit from beginning to end is manipulative or filled with lies, and that the intent is to harm. If they are not consistent emotionally, cannot be, then their professions of love are NOT real and NEVER were felt. It is my understanding that they feel rage, envy and hate, and I saw that with my ex, but even that was fleeting. It came and went like the wind. Perhaps this is where I need to be more open-minded. If the psychopath can feel, albeit with shallow affect, can they FEEL love? Kel

  110. Linda,

    You must have purchased the book? lol! That’s a lot to write out. I like his book, but I think my understanding is shifting to a more intellectual basis for learning about psychopathy. This is why all the research. For some reason, the neuroscience behind psychopathy fascinates me and gives answers that others cannot. For me, it’s more than behaviors/traits that outline the psychopath, but now the question of WHY. Traits and behaviors isn’t enough anymore. I like facts and I like PROOF. Thomas doesn’t like the brain explanation because of the element of lack of conscience, which cannot be traced to anything scientific. I don’t think it’s a good idea to discount the science behind psychopathy because it may in fact, become extremely foundational in helping victims in various systems that have encountered a disordered one. You cannot argue with a solid foundation in science. What could anyone say about what is becoming obvious in the neuroscientific community about psychopathy?

    I’ve also noticed something else: That no matter what you learn and find out, being human, the aftermath STILL HURTS. Understanding it helps, but it still has the same outcome for the victims, the time and effort it takes to heal ourselves and the pain of personal growth that hopefully, in the end, gives the experience meaning. Even though there wasn’t love involved on their end, I’m becoming more comfortable with the reality that there was on MY end. Regardless. I’m also looking squarely at my own behaviors and choices that kept me in the web for a very long time. It isn’t pretty. It also isn’t helping that my son appears to be suffering from the disorder as well. It just never seems to end for me, when I want nothing more than for it to be over. Kel

  111. Gar,

    This is probably one of the BIGGEST and EARLIEST red flags that any of us would see, in that their emotional memory is deficient, and comes across as acting like nothing ever happened. I’m beginning to see something here……maybe I’ve made myself feel better by saying that my ex was only angry, envious and destructive and felt nothing else, while even those emotions were fleeting, what about the positive emotions? Don’t those belong in the same category? I say this as a potential hypothesis and not an established theory, but the acting as if nothing ever happened, applies to the bad in the relationshit AND the good too. For example, my ex said he loved it that I made his bed one morning and fixed coffee for him before he left for work. That no other woman had done this. The next day, I did the same thing. He didn’t even mention, never said a word, and took the coffee I brought to him in the bathroom and never drank a sip of it and threw it down the sink in front of me. Did he really mean what he said the day before? Was his not noticing the bed made and coffee done the next day, on purpose to hurt me? Or was it the emotional lack of memory that I was seeing? Acting like iT NEVER HAPPENED.

    Gar, being with one of these people is truly mind blowing. None of it was NORMAL in any sense of the word. The addiction via the rollercoaster ride on a daily basis and constantly walking on eggshells is NOT normal. Is it not a wonder that BORING seems ABNORMAL after one of these relationshits? I’m still coming down from the rollercoaster ride I was on! Once you get that, and you have peace in your life, you will notice that being around your ex is no less than extremely energy draining, even if just for a few minutes or hours. Stability, peace and CONSISTENCY IS NORMAL. it is NOT normal for someone to call you names, degrade you, minimize and trivialize you, lie to you, manipulate you on a daily basis. IT IS NOT NORMAL. I was listening to a radio program today about psychopathy and the aftermath. The woman speaking about it works with victims on a daily basis and knows psychopathy. Listening to her was SO soothing to me. She discussed getting into another relationship one day after healing from the psychopath. That women and men often find normal people BORING…but that this is GOOD, this is NORMAL….and that if women and men eventually take a chance on normal, that they get use to it and would NEVER go back to their lives with a psychopath or anyone like that again that creates that “excitement”.

    I found out today that my ex best friend, who has been with my psychopathic ex husband for ten years, is now battling terminal cancer. This is the THIRD bout since she’s been with him. From the little I’ve heard about what has happened in those ten years, tells me that the absolute STRESS of the “excitement” in living with one of these people, will kill you. It WILL KILL YOU. I’m convinced that it’s what its done to her. That kind of “excitement” is not worth my life. It’s not yours either, Gar. You are blessed you are out. And you’re a nice man. YOU WILL find a good woman that is worthy of you some day and the peace, joy and love that you deserve you will have. You’re doing the right thing for yourself and your son. Kel

  112. Gar,

    This was a very interesting article. The thing that struck me most and created a lot of thought and something I’ve been seeing a lot in my studying of psychopathy is that substance abuse is comorbid with personality disorders. BOTH my ex’s were alcoholics. My first ex a drug abuser, alcoholic and also had ADHD as a child and into adulthood. So what came first? This is an easy one to decide, I believe. Take away the alcohol, the drugs and what’s left? There are many people that I’ve known who have successfully recovered and/or are recovering from alcoholism or problems, myself being one of them. ALL of those that I know that are recovered or are recovering ARE NOT psychopathic. Once the addictive agent is removed and sobriety has commenced for a time, these people return to themselves and are loving, caring, kind, intelligent human beings. They have empathy and often, when further into their recovery, help others who are new to recovery. Psychopaths will never recover from their psychopathy. Their lack of empathy, remorse and guilt will always be present. Their traits do not disappear when the substance is removed. Ironically, this is what I’m seeing in my youngest son right now, as painful as it is, these traits are STILL present! It is said that alcoholism LOOKS and PRESENTS oftentimes with what looks like psychopathic traits. This is true. But take the substance away and you’ll know for sure because the psychopathic traits will not disappear and that, in my opinion, is what came first. Kel

  113. Michael,

    Is this book, by chance, called Psychopath: the emotion and the brain? I’ve been reading the reviews on this and Blair is one of the authors. It’s one my MUST READ list of psychopathy. The reviews are excellent.

    I’ve read some of Blairs stuff today too. Fascinating man and research material based on psychopathy. Excellent resources. Thanks for the info Michael and Chris! Gar, this might be a great read for you too if you’re getting into the why’s of psychopathy.

  114. Kel – For some reason I personally dont care to divulge any further than behaviors and traits when it comes to psychopathy. As you stated exploring this disorder to the fullest extent does not lessen the trauma from the experience and having proof or facts does not in any way change what we fell victim to. I have noticed a shift in your recovery you are taking a more scientific approach lately as opposed to a personal approach, you are seeing the behaviors of what he did was because of what he was. Maybe your x path is becoming more of something in a petri dish than anything that ever resembled anything human; at least that is how I view mine at this stage. I am just content in knowing I was dealing with someone that is not even close to the majority of the human population in his thinking and I am not going to break it down into neuroscience or any other type of science but I am glad you are exploring it further and you find it interesting. Linda

  115. Gary; Your very welcome!! I started to see how my x path gave off different personas in different interactions. I remember when we were out having breakfast we ran into a couple he knew and he acted so differently and I remember it so well because it was as if I was watching a totally different person talk to these people. You can take comfort Gary they only seem to fool their “new” followers, and eventually everyone sees through their glib superficial fake bullshit. I am glad what I posted gave you clarity and helped someone, it helped me greatly when I read it also. x0 Linda

  116. Linda,

    Really? thank you! I understand why you wouldn’t want to investigate it further. We each find our own peace in some way with it. Didn’t Thomas mention something about viewing psychopaths as like something in a petri dish that they aren’t human? Maybe that’s a good thing with regards to my recovery. I’m in psychology at school and really finding it enjoyable and fascinating, but more so with research. I think at this point in my recovery it’s important to move beyond the emotional impact and try to understand it, for myself, on a scientific level. It isn’t just with regards to my ex, but also to my son. He’s an addict, is in detention right now and hasn’t had access to drugs for two weeks. While he looks much better physically, TRAITS of a disorder are still there. I will find out shortly, just what “IT” is that’s wrong with him, but this kick started my interest in researching psychopathy on a different level. Maybe my son still has a chance, and maybe he does not, but I can be more of a help to him and to those around him that don’t really GET the disorder and what I’m seeing (his P.O definitely is NOT getting it), as he goes in for more treatment as we will be working with a plethora of therapists and treatment providers. Seeing my son exhibiting traits, even while clean, shows me that intervention for substance abuse does not make a disorder disappear. It’s showing me how REAL this illness really is, that perhaps there is a genetic component to it. It’s heartbreaking to see my son this way, more so than the ex, but I’d rather be armed and prepared than not. Ironically, seeing my son exhibit these traits, provides closure to me about my ex too. Hard to explain that. Because I’ll be working with the juvenile court system with regards to my son, becoming educated on every level that I can about psychopathy is important in doing what I can to help people around him that don’t get it, TO get it. They are unconcerned about any disorders and are in denial about it, as the system is more concerned about saving money, than they are about saving lives. If my son is truly disordered, I want it documented for future reference. If he is disordered via his mandatory psych eval, then I know what I’m looking at, which involves another set of decisions that will have to be made that will painful and not fun to make.
    Linda, I’m glad you’re finding peace in understanding what happened with your ex. Sheridan’s book and videos seemed to have helped you very much. If that works for you and it provides you with the answers that you need, I’m happy for you with that progress. I don’t think, nor do I believe, that everyone needs a scientific answer, but I do believe that those fighting the court system, would benefit by “proof” of psychopathy scientifically, rather than just a victims account, in which the psychopaths can toy with. In Sandra Brown’s book, she explains that the brain explanation should put the whole issue of psychopathy, as far as victims go, to rest, that when victims hear the brain explanation, backed up by science, they “get” it. I don’t believe that is the case for everyone though. Kel

  117. Kelli, I have come to look at it like this; without empathy there can be no love.

    Linda, I think you make an important and valid point re the science of psychopathy and how this does not lessen the trauma that a pathological relationship has on victims. In a sense it brings its own pain around loss, and the realisation that we eventually come to see our emotional experience of what we thought was the most loving relationship of our lives, through the cold clinical lens of the DSM and pathology. But I believe it is a painful hurdle amongst many that we need traverse on the path towards recovery. There is an interesting and moving article on this very issue that I will provide a link for. I hope it helps; warm regards Linda. Michael.

    http://narcissism-support.blogspot.com/2009/01/grieving-relationship.html

  118. Great link Michael. You can learn lots about these types, and i totally agree that you have to in order to start on the road of recovery. but it is two separatet things. the heart just takes that bit longer.

    lesleyxxx

  119. Lesley; this is very true and resonates with my experience. My head “got it” long before my heart. I had to drag my heart kicking and screaming every step of the way.

  120. Michael,

    Your post is eloquent for so many reasons. I feel as if I’m defending my passion and interest in the change of perspective about psychopathy. I think Sandra Brown is right, as is even Thomas Sheridan about turning the focus off of them, ie: swirling or stuck in cog/dis about my ex and making it about me. This doesn’t stop the grieving, but it’s true, as with what the article you provided states about the many layers involved in the healing process. HE IS, in my mind now, a “specimen” of sorts right out of the DSM. As I process this, and read up on research and the science behind it, I gain more understanding (as also mentioned in your article post), rather than CLOSURE, I suppose. Closure will never happen. Understanding can happen. I’m a pretty determined, stronger than I believed, person. Swirling does not help me in the slightest. I don’t WANT to sit in grief over this the rest of my life. He is gone now and I want to find solid answers, not only about what he was, but also about my son, which has complicated my grieving. Unless you also have a child with pathology, it would be hard to understand how motivated one becomes in wanting to embrace and understand what the disorder is all about, and it’s more for me, than just traits. I cannot possibly have hope of teaching others or helping my son if I’m swirling and in fetal position over my ex. I’ve reached the conclusion that he is what he is, it was what it was, he has this disorder and to try to make sense of his behaviors and traits alone, is to sit in my addiction and wallow in it. I’m choosing NOT to do that as it hampers my recovery. I speak only from my own opinion, perspective and what’s right for me, not what is right for any of you and your processes, just so I’m clear. My entire background has been filled with pathology. I’ve lost every single individual from my bio family that I loved. NC for me, isn’t just with regards to my ex, but EVERYONE who is pathological. Now it’s my son. I guess I’ve hit the “rage stage”. With that much pathology, one gets very tired of it, very quickly, and with that, is a shift in perspective. I want my anger over the overwhelming past and present pathology to mean something. To derive meaning from it, for me, means studying the scientific aspects, as well as processing the experience(s), and to help others understand it. I cannot be strong for those who are left that matter most to me (my children/grandchildren), if I’m not moving forward and stuck in grief.. No matter how old they are, and most are grown and gone now, my relationships with them have continued to grow ever closer and the son left at home now is experiencing a level of peace in our home that he never has before, particularly with his brother around to bully him and that’s what pathology DOES. Pathology IS the corner bully and I’m not going to sit around and let IT bully me anymore. If I can take my rage and turn it into more understanding and help others with it, then I have walked away with a sense of MEANING out of it all. I don’t get that wallowing in pain, even though the grief DOES overwhelm me at times to tears. I keep pushing ahead. I need to be strong for my son as well. If it turns out he is diagnosed pathological, then I will do whatever I can, to make sure HE doesn’t have anymore victims as much as is possible. And if I can do nothing about that, then I will have to let him go too. Kel

  121. I have a question for all of you. This is interesting to me too. I understand Michael and Lesley about your head getting it and your heart following later. Michael, dragging your heart kicking and screaming lol, that is for sure!

    But with what we all at one time, felt for our pathologicals, this was the love of our lives or so we thought…….was that really true? I mean REALLY true? If so, if this was the love of our lives…why did you get out? And if you were forced out rather than leaving (I dumped mine), do you think you ever would have gotten out eventually? If so, why? Kel

  122. Keli: There is nothing more than I would want than to have the victims who fell to this be able to present this predation in a court of law have the path go through a series of test, x-ray the brain, have a full mental assessment etc… I wish there was some way to prove this disorder clinically rather than based on theory and behavior and if so lock the bastard in a mental ward so he can never harm society again ….. BUT this is just not going to happen there is just not enough evidence to prosecute someone because they go around wearing personas to hide their hidden agendas; The smart psychopaths go to great lengths to hide evidence of their evil intent and in my case I just look like a dumb ass who fell for a “Player” so to speak. It would be almost impossible to prove he set out to destroy me it would only appear as if I was a woman who had the mindset of hell hath no fury for a woman scorned. I would be called crazy and that I was just pissed because the relationship failed and I was hurt. These men are NOT just “players” getting their variety and assortment of other’s “sexual organs” is just a SMALL part of their sick pathology, most of the damage they inflict is psychological.

    I have also moved on in processing this experience with a more clinical and scientific approach vs PERSONAL because it NEVER was personal it was always the direct result from what they were: DISORDERED. More and more they are being labeled as “Mentally Ill” but its a different type of mental illness that does not hinder the productivity and success of their lives. this mental illness actually in a way HELPS them to achieve success and status as apposed to someone who cant function because of voices they hear etc….. (examp) They are surviving machines they dont have the anxieties we do that would interfere in their daily lives; their lack of conscience is their medication that keeps them calm, cool and collected. I am not saying they dont have alot in their lives to juggle and some days are harder than others but they can do this with the greatest of ease because whatever the outcome is they are not emotionally affected by it as we are. Yes Sheridan DID refer to them as Petri Dishes and I liked that comparison and applied it to how we now study them in a scientific approach – he also sees them as lab experiments which I am sure you have also read in his book.

    Strange though I dont have a narrative or personal thesis of the whole experience. I cant express this experience in a science book as Dr. Hare outlines it was purely a rape of my heart and life and even KNOWING what behaviors manifests in Cluster B’s oops I mean Cluster Fucks, it was a PERSONAL experience for me that personally changed myself and my life, and in the long run for the BETTER. Linda

  123. Linda, Kelli and Michael, it’s true that the head gets the information before the heart, because psychopaths play upon our feelings, particularly our immediate emotions and sexual attraction/bonding. But I’m extremely glad that there are websites informing us about psychopathy from a social and neurological perspective. This information is invaluable, because if we don’t get psychopathy on an intellectual level we have almost no chance of getting it on an emotional level. Emotionally victims are conditioned by the psychopaths to rationalize the wrongdoings and to bond with them. Claudia

  124. Claudia,

    EXCELLENT point “Emotionally victims are conditioned by the psychopaths to rationalize the wrongdoings and to bond with them”.

    Yep. And that’s exactly why the intellectual knowledge is so critical to recovery. I’m so glad you put into words what I’m not able to without writing a novel!

    Discovery of the intellectual variety, takes away the power of the psychopathic bond. The heart has no choice but to follow. The knowledge goes against everything the psychopath asks us not to question, regardless of whether what he did was good or bad. knowledge allows me to see the good AND the bad for what it was. What it really IS. It is painful, but at the same time, liberating because each step I take towards knowledge, is another step taken in removing his power and his manipulations/lies/mask from my life. It also puts a bucket of cold water on my fantasy from which my ex fed from and that guaranteed my involvement, rather than my disengagement. Welcome to reality. Kel

  125. Kelli i think that most of the confusion around a pathological cluster b and psychopathic relationship is born out of the confusion of whether they are disordered or not. Some people are just asseholes! others are personality disordered. Can you tell the difference? Michael

  126. Kelli,

    I can honestly say my relationship was not the love of my life. I had just lost my father and was trying to heal from that. I knew that things were not going well in my relationship and was even in couple’s therapy before I got married. My ex was always saying how things would get better when… Even though what I felt was not right, she was constantly telling me that the conflict we were experiencing was based on the circumstances of our relationship. She wanted to me married and therefore wanted the relationship to continue. She was not intellectually honest about the conflict and tried to appease my concerns. I don’t know why, but I beleived her and ignored my own inner voice telling me things were not right.

    I would imagine that all of us, looking back, can now see that our relationships were dysfunctional. Perhaps I was gullible, trusting or naive. I think at the time, I was trying to move forward in my own life and wanted to ‘make it work’, even though deep down I knew that it wasn’t.

    Chris

  127. Michael: Thank you for the blog. I found a statement that someone said that best describes what my experience was:

    “The terrible thing about a narcissistic relationship is, that it prostitutes the highest human values – integrity, empathy, love, responsibility, caring. They all become perverted and turn into lies. The victim becomes a lifeless object – to be used, abused and discarded – with no human value – like a concentration camp inmate”.

    i have been pretty involved with Thomas Sheridan this past month but now with that said and done it DOES NOT “ease” the damage from the experience; however it has given me a profound and greater understanding of what ripped through my life. I am no longer a “lifeless object” and I can say that with much honestly – I was only lifeless when he was in my life. All those that love them are only loving an image of what they imagine them to be or WANT them to be. My reality may not be most pleasant but I would much rather live my life in TRUTH than a life filled with illusion, fantasy and lies as those that are with them. That is what I hold on to everyday as I move forward; maybe this is the only closure we need Michael to live in TRUTH which is the anti thesis of them Linda

  128. Michael,

    Yes, I can tell the difference. What was a pattern with all the pathologicals I’ve known is more than just being an asshole or a bitch. lack of remorse, guilt and lack of empathy were key signs in all of them. ALL of them. Including in my son. It doesn’t take long to see it now. I also notice that their thoughts are very fragmented. It’s also an energy that is given off that is VERY depleting. it’s interesting because when I asked my therapist this question, how she can tell those who are personality disordered from those who are not, her answer was a simple, yet clear one for me: “They fill up the room and when they leave you’re left with asking yourself “WTF?”

    I think my son’s PO is an asshole LOL!, but he’s not personality disordered. I think my daughter’s bf is an asshole too, but he’s not personality disordered either. Kel

  129. Michael,

    I’m curious as to why you asked this question. What in your mind tells you that someone is personality disordered? Maybe before I knew anything about it, I would not have been able to tell whether one was or wasn’t, but then again, having lived with them all of my life, I could not make the distinction because it was familiar. Pathology was a way of life. Now that I know, I can spot it rather rapidly. Kel

  130. Michael,

    Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding past statements regarding your ex, but was there not some confusion initially on your end about whether or not BPD was actually psychopaths in women? I’m curious as to what alleviated your confusion about this. I have no doubt that mine was a psychopath, actually, psychopathic/malignant narcissist. How did you draw your current conclusion about your ex and BPD? Kel

  131. Michael, personally, based on my reading and experience, I HAVE learned to tell the difference between jerk (or player) and personality disordered individual. It’s a HUGE difference, in fact. There’s a pattern of deliberate, malicious and intentional harm inflicted by personality disordered individuals, which shows through in their behavior across the board (once you finally open your eyes and see through the lies or the mask). Psychopaths in particular are human predators. They go on the hunt for victims with the deliberate intent to harm and destroy others. We’ve had this discussion before; to me the difference is clear as day. I hope to transmit this sense of the difference to others as well through my blog and books, as well as through referring readers to other books and blogs that I find helpful. Because the difference between pathology and just normal human flaws can sometimes make the difference in our lives between life and death. But usually it just makes the difference between a normal life filled with some challenges and a life filled with unhappiness, at the hands of a disordered individual. Which is a huge difference for anyone who has to endure it. Claudia

  132. Kelli, I have come across other research in my reading around sub criminal and sub clinical psychopathy, and the huge overlap trait wise between psychopathy, narcissism, and Borderline personality. Many researches hold the view that borderlines are female psychopaths. I’ll post some quotes for you Kel. Michael

  133. Michael,

    Thanks a bunch! I’d like to know what the “overlap” traits are, although I wouldn’t be surprised. I truly believe my ex was a psycho/narc (psychopath/malignant narcissist). The traits from both descriptions of both disorders were exhibited.

    I’ve had a really, REALLY bad day today, All. Seems to be the week of the psychopathic ex’s! ALL THREE have contacted me within the last few days.

    Ugh. It’s tough to be such great supply **barf** Kel

  134. Michael
    Yes, you are bang on once again – that is how I feel, still do feel to an extent. My head is totally there, has been since I found this site and read all of your comments and experiences. My heart well..
    Keli, I noticed you asked this before about if they were the love of your life why are we out of it? I think we are out of it as we had to save ourselves and not because we did not love THEM, however I can only speak for myself there. I am out of it because A. he told me to get out B. I knew there was something mentally not right with him and C. He had me so devastated by then that I couldn’t plead with him anymore. I think and this is referring to me only here, is that yes he was the love of my life. I had or felt I had a connection with him since age 12 when i saw him across the dry ice at a school disco and he was gazing back (do they have the psycho stare at age 12?? Hahaha Maybe!!). My whole life until we met up again i always wondered about him, i remembered him frequently. This of course was the hook he used. His feelings were no doubt a lie, I know that. But my feelings were most definitely not. My ex when he was the bloke I knew from school, was the bloke I always wanted to be with. And I don’t mean the romantic gestures, the crumbs they throw you – I mean the person that he could be or have running alongside all the underhanded stuff he was up to..the bloke that he had been when i knew him. Its hard to explain as he sounds like he had multiple personalities!! But he didn’t. It was more like layers of him. Like you and Michael comment on, there was a mixture of all sorts in there!!
    I don’t sit and think about why he said what and did what and tie my head up in knots any more. I have much more clarity than before and i know he will never change. I know what he was, is and what he will always be. I try to get angry but I cant. I don’t feel sorry for him I know that. I think it is a mixture of sadness and frustration that I am left with, I know there is no hope for him and no hope for me and him or quite frankly, for him and anyone. I think a lot of people are just left with the feeling that the link Michael posted says, that there is just loss. And that just takes time to get through or maybe you really never get over it. It just all depends on the circumstances I think.
    I do though also strongly agree that whatever you can learn and arm yourself with about paths makes you feel much stronger, it gave me my self esteem back most definitely as you stop blaming yourself – you realise that you were not in the wrong. And that made a huge difference to me what with me leaving my husband and being blamed for that too.
    Studying, reading, learning, talking, sharing your experiences, whatever route you find and take to help yourself (and ultimately others) can only be good things, whatever works for you, whatever straightens your head out, clears the mist, makes you find yourself, anything! No matter how you find your way, as long as you find it and don’t go mad. I think we have all come on so much on this site and due to Claudia’s articles and help and each other’s help too for sure. I for one am just glad my head is clearer. And that is a good start. The heart wants what the heart wants, but sometimes that is just not the way it can be and you have to be a strong person to say I love you, but you are no good for me. Whether they have cut you off forever or whether they turn up again at some point, its you that has to be the strong one.
    Love to everyone
    lesleyxxxxxxx

  135. Lesley, your reasons to be out of the toxic relationship with the psychopath boil down to, as you state, saving yourself. Each and every one of us realized something is severely wrong with the person who claimed to love us so dearly, while consistently acting to hurt us or machinating against us. Actions finally spoke louder than words. Loving words are facile, when not backed up by loving actions. And when we finally saw the psychopaths’ actions they were not merely indifferent to our well-being but also downright malicious. For me the biggest trigger was when the psychopath who had pursued me so relentlessly every single day for over a year and pressured me to ask for a divorce invited me casually to join a dating website as soon as I did ask my husband for a divorce. There was the transparent sense that I had only been a game to him, and the game was not mere conquest from my husband, but my isolation from my loved ones and complete destruction. That was his underlying motive in pretending to love me. That was the thrill of the chase. The thrill was real for him, but not because he cared about me but because he was excited by the hunt and the prospect of destroying me. Each and every psychopath is pursuing his or her targets in this kind of hunt and each and every psychopath takes great pleasure in harming the prey. When you see this reality transparently, you can never go back. It’s a very chilling revelation and the only way to deal with it is not simply to move on, but also to prosper in our lives. Claudia

  136. Chris,

    Your father dying may well have created a vulnerability to her promises of working things through. It’s not uncommon for a psychopath to take advantage of just such a situation. I understand that. Retrospectively, I wish I had listened to that inner voice, given the outcome. I’m sorry for what you’ve been through. Particularly with regards to your children. Kel

  137. Lesley,

    You sound so much better! you have come such a long way since you first got here and that’s good to see!

    You’ve reached a milestone to which I’m only partially there in that you do not blame yourself anymore for what happened. I had a really bad trigger yesterday, having to deal with the entity in which I am still a client and that my ex works. I had to see one of the coworkers yesterday and she was NOT kind to me. They all knew what happened between us and it set me way way back. If it weren’t for Claudia, I’d still be a mess! I was joking with her that for me, it’s ex psychopath week. All three of my major ex’s have attempted contact with me this week, further creating more frustration and spinning for me. One of them is much like your situation. He was my first real bf in high school and the man will not take IGNORE for an answer. Last ex likes to call and use unavailable numbers, and ex hubby psycho called to get info on my now pregnant daughter to which he has a dominance bond over. He did not ask about the rest of our children. I always regret picking up the phone when he calls. TOO many triggers this week already! I hope the rest of the week goes smoothly! When you want them out of your life and they won’t leave, it’s frustrating! I so understand the need for time and space to heal. Psychopaths do not want to give that to you sometimes. I’m glad you’ve been able to do that. Kel

  138. Hi Kelli, as promised some quotes: Blair et al “the psychopath, emotion and the brain” – “One problem with attachment theory is that disturbances in attachment have also been associated with other conditions, such as borderline personality and autism” This autism link is interesting, ive come across this before and I’m sure Sheridan refers to autism in his book. Then theres the ADHD link to psychopathy and BPD.

    “Handbook of Psychopathy” – The interpresonal context and the family become the major focus of womens mental health problems. In this regard, some psychopathy researchers have advanced the the view that certain disorders that are more commonly diagnosed in women including BPD and histrionic personality disorder may represent female expressions of psychopathy”. Theres more; there is a strong correlation between factor 2 psychopathy traits and BPD, also some research that there is a robust link between a blend of some of factor 1 and factor 2 traits of psychopathy in BPD. I know it’s all a bit technical, but to answer your question Kelli, I’m still not sure whether my ex is BPD, NPD (which will soon no longer exist as a discrete diagnostic catergory, or Sociopathic / psychopathic. She looks like all 3! So which one is she? I think that these catergories all stem from the psychopathic constellation of core traits. Psychopathy it would seem is not one discrete catergory, rather it is made up of a number facets that at their very core converge at the same emotional deficit. All these disorders put very simply are lack of the experience of emotion disorders. But this does not mean they do not experience any emotion at all. But are they the same disorder that manifest differently in behaviours mitigated by a gender, class, social background, family background etc etc etc. Why is that some psychopaths kill but most do not? Or most do not break the law (and no its not just because they havnt been caught!) This doesnt make them capable of moral integrity, or capable of love, or not emotionally abusive and so on. I think it is impossible for a psychopath, law abiding or not, to not be emotionally abusive over time. Sorry I’m waffling here, but I think if we want to educate and spread the word about these disorders and psychopathy, we will make progress when we focus on the majority of these low no conscience / low no empathy (the sociopath next door types) and give Ted Bundy and the likes a day off. Which of the following would any of you’s out there relate to more-
    1) Have you encountered a person who initially seemed normal and loving and your perfect mate but then as time went on you noticed that they had 2 radically different sides to their personality, and as time progressed you realised they are lacking in emotion, empathy etc etc etc and emotionally and psychologically abused you with devestating results?

    2) Have you encountered a person who initially seemed normal and loving and your perfect mate but then as time went on you discovered they have a similar personality to Ted Bundy and they were serial killers?
    Most people tune out on reading the second description.

  139. Michael, I agree with you one hundred percent. And, of course, any of us would choose option 1), namely we’ve encountered a person who presents himself or herself as our dream come true, loving and caring, and turns out to be a person without conscience, without heart, harmful and malicious. This is the kind of psychopath ANY of us are statistically likely to encounter.

    The media doesn’t focus on these garden-variety psychopaths because they are not sensational. If given the choice between a story of 1) how a person is robbed, conned, used and then dumped by a psychopath and 2) how a person is killed by a psychopath (plus a murder mystery), of course the media will choose story 2). But it’s story 1) that is the story of our lives and that any of us need to know about as an essential self-defense against evil human beings. Claudia

  140. Michael,

    Thank you for posting that. This is all very interesting.

    Given the assumptions above, I’d like to ask a question. I’ve seen this on very few sites, but it has been alluded to on a few: What behaviors are INEVITABLE when it comes to the Cluster B? Food for thought, really. Kel

  141. Kel, I look forward to Michael’s answer to your excellent question, but here’s mine (about which are the common traits of Cluster B personality types):

    All Cluster B’s share:

    a) shallowness of emotions
    b) relatedly, an incapacity to bond to others (as opposed to merely attach to them, a useful distinction Brown draws in Women Who Love Psychopaths)
    c) also relatedly, a lack of empathy (which leads to extremely cruel and callous behavior towards others)
    d) a narcissistic sense of self

    They DON’T all share:

    a) glibness and charm–that’s mostly a trait of charismatic psychopaths
    b) all-pervasive pathological lying–once again, that’s more of a psychopathic trait even though narcissists and BPD’s can engage in such deception too
    c) a mask of sanity–BPD’s can seem very unstable, rather than sane, while narcissists are often so pompous, self-absorbed and openly prone to narcissistic injury as to seem utterly ridiculous. The mask of sanity, Hervey Cleckley’s apt term, describes best the psychopaths. Claudia

  142. Kelli, Claudia esentially hits the nail; but here is my answer to your insightful question.
    Out of the following list, which traits and relationship dynamics describe a borderline or a psychopath?

    a) shallowness of emotion, unstable emotion, emotional absense in a relationship, rudimentary emotions that lack in nuance, emotionally numb or empty?
    b) an inabilty to empathise with others. And because of a and b at times come across as emotionally glib and unconvincing or emotionally atrophied in some way in their response.
    c) Have a desperate need for stimulation in an attempt to break through their boredom caused by never knowing love.
    d)

  143. sorry having to continue on a seperate post because the bottom of my screen was doing odd things !
    d) pathological lieing as a means to manipulate us into meeting their here and now needs.
    e) Callousness and disregard for our feelings.
    f) an inability to see, and empathise with our feelings and or perspective.
    g) leading us to feel as though we were never seen as people in our own right.
    h) capable of immediate disconnection frrom us no matter what was shared.

  144. not to mention impulsivity, seduction through mirroring and idealisation, mean and sweet cycles of relating, gaslighting, denial, complete lack of accountabilty for their own behaviour and an inherent blindness on how their behaviour impacts on their partners (lack of empathy again!) And there is much more.

    Borederline or psychopath?

  145. Michael

    PSYCHOPATH! But I do think that borderlines, when acting out, have a tendency to be much more DRAMATIC/ERRATIC in their responses, perhaps a female hormonal thing as well, just a simple gender difference although I’ve seen men behave this way too in that I believed them to be borderline but they were also GAY.

  146. Claudia, we both know that the media is hardly neutral to say the least. In fact I’m trying very hard not to get worked up into a Sheridan moral frenzy around the psychopathic state, Have you watched a movie called the zeitgeist addendum?
    On a more individualised note Claudia we have to inform people on how to spot a psychopathic seduction. Michael.

  147. All,

    I wasn’t going to share this on the blog, but Claudia has a tendency to encourage me to do so.

    Admittedly, I’m rather humbled by what’s going on. I seem to make significant strides in my recovery, feel I have a handle on things and then a trigger develops and I’m reacting to it. It is frustrating as well as humbling and somewhat maddening all at the same time.

    For the past several days, two of my ex’s have made contact with me, one, i have been ignoring and he continues to call me. The other, my ex husband who has a dominance bond over one of my daughters, while he could care less about the rest of the children. He is abusive and mean and makes fun of me as a parent, but this is nothing new, and I disconnect from the conversation. Because it’s been so many years, he is no more than an annoying gnat that appears from time to time.
    The ex first bf that keeps calling and I keep ignoring, is so repulsive to me, I feel nauseated when I see his number.
    Last ex, I’m not certain if it is he or not, however, when he does call, he disguises his number. This went on rather obsessively from August through September and then abruptly stopped. I got another call two weeks ago in the evening and then not another until last afternoon late. I’m still a client of the entity for which my ex works and I was required to see one of his coworkers yesterday. she use to be very kind to me and we’d discuss our families and such when we saw one another. Not this time. you see, everyone where he works is aware of what happened between us as he was “fired” from his job because of it, then subsequently rehired during a hearing process in which he exploited me in the most traumatic way, to do it. Now he is in the redemption process at work, having married for the third time and the woman has money. His new persona and image are flourishing within the entity. This woman’s attitude was a no brainer in that Mr. Wonderful has been smearing me at work. He is not allowed to see my file or have anything to do with me, but that doesn’t prevent water cooler conversations between coworkers. he is very manipulative. He could easily get any answers he wanted out of anyone there.

    I was distraught after this very brief meeting. It set me back months in my recovery. And that was not the end of it. I saw his wife, up close, in the grocery store last night. A nice big bottle of wine, and getting some steaks from meat person at the meat counter. nice cuts and quite expensive, but being wealthy, no worries. She was short, with short brown hair, heavy set, big brown eyes. Her wedding ring simple but pretty. She was a bit older, wore very conservative, but yet sophisticated clothing, black slacks, black blouse. She had a very calm, very gentle sort of demeanor. The type of woman that he’d spend quiet evenings with. She never gave off the slightest notion of a woman who was anything but laid back and unpretentious.

    I immediately compared myself to her. My dress is all wrong. I dress young for a woman of 47. I get stuff from stores like Forever 21, Charlotte Russe, when I can afford them, which is rarely. I have a beautiful figure for someone my age and I take good care of myself physically, and now am the healthiest I have been in many years of suffering with him. My youthful looks, energy and the way I dress immediately made me feel insecure while looking at her. I scream immature, while she screams the Queen of calm, quite, sophisticated and mature. Just like he does. Just like I was attracted to with him. He has his perfect match. His ex wives and I were different people until we got involved with him. EACH ONE OF US, when leaving the relationship, were neurotic messes. EACH one of us had strong reactions to him in the relationship, whether it was crying all the time, or screaming and yelling at him. When it was over, those behaviors, stopped.

    I’m swirling today. They have a nice quiet life. She is the epitome of what he said he wanted. He told me, towards the end, that fat women were better in bed, as his friends had told him. That remark was devastating to me at the time. He said he just wanted to be loved, he just wanted to be accepted and he just wanted peace. She brings him all of that. Is it possible that she has calmed him? Nice quiet dinners at home, her money to renovate his house to be even more comfortable, nice vacations, great in bed. peace, love and quiet.

    He’s not abusing this woman. She looked well rested. Calm and relaxed.

    And they have been together now for about eight months, three of them married.

    Was he disordered? Or has it now gone away because she was strong enough to change his behavior? Strong enough to handle it? He doesn’t treat her the way he treated all of us. she brings calm, health and peace to his life, a lifelong companion.

    Where is the abuse?

    I”m beginning to wonder if I was wrong. The life he has now with her, was the life I wanted so much with him.

    There was always another, better potential.

    Is it possible that he’s changed because of her? Can a disordered one mellow enough over time to become tolerable?

    I’m not sure anymore. But these combined elements of the last few days, have thrown me completely off and have humbled me in that I’m not as far along in the healing process as I wish i was and am in fact, deeply depressed over what I’m perceiving. Kel

  148. Kel, NO it’s NOT possible for a psychopath to make any meaningful changes for the better. The changes psychopaths make are strategic and local, to get what they want from whomever they want it in the moment. Even in those situations when they act on their “best behavior”, usually, behind people’s backs they continue on with their disordered, pathological behavior. A psychopath’s “best behavior” is any normal person’s worst nightmare. If any normal person is calm, happy and collected while living with a psychopath, it’s because she (or he) doesn’t know what’s going on behind her back or doesn’t want to see it (the blinding powers of denial can be very strong when one’s in love!).

    Michael, I think two of the best writers about psychopathy at work in government are Alan Bullock (Hitler and Stalin) and Robert Conquest (The Great Terror). There’s also a psychologically insightful book called Political Ponerology, but it’s not written for a general audience (it includes typologies and quite a bit of jargon), the way these two political histories of psychopathic dictators are. Of course, some typologies and technical jargon may be necessary for social psychology books.

    As for explaining the way psychopathic seduction works–by whom, of whom and how–that’s been the primary focus of this blog and my two books, Dangerous Liaisons and The Seducer. Claudia

  149. Michael,

    Admittedly, I’m not much aware of what’s going on in the UK, but in this country, I find myself absolutely LIVID with what Sheridan refers to as the psychopathic control grid and wall street, investment banks, political absolute corruption and the corporate entities that profit and get richer while the middle class and poor get POORER. If one wishes to see psychopathic manipulation and lies at its FINEST, this is where it’s at! The ONLY thing I’m seeing as advancement here in the way of conveying knowledge to the public is via progressive talk radio where a pretty famous guy by the name of Tom Hartman has more than ONCE mentioned the word psychopath, what it means politically and with our ever present LYING FOX News propaganda machine, etc. He has done several interviews with public figures that are also aware of what psychopathy is and are fighting publicly against the psychopathic control grid in the form of the GOP, as well as the tea party. The Democrats are NOT immune to psychopathy either and there are many themselves that are clinically observable in their behavior. I’m very disappointed in Obama and his seeming inability to get the balls to fight back. But I can tell you, that there seems to be an ever so slight shift in the public awareness about what is going on that is nothing less than CRAZY MAKING. Those that make the biggest voter differences and turn out are those that are the MOST silent. My fear is that unless opponents to the control grid speak up, those silent voters will stay at home and not bother when it comes time to boot out some congressmen/senators and eventually, president. Kel

  150. Kelli, I’m sorry to hear that things are so rough for you right now. I’m in a bit of a rough patch myself, but for work-related reasons. First, let me get the most important thing off my chest: never compare yourself to anyone else (let alone a psychopathic ex-partner’s latest target). It’s the most self-defeating thing you can possibly do. We’re all different, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and comparing yourself to someone else amounts to negating your own strengths and focusing on your own self-percieved “weaknesses” (which you did pretty well, by the way, in your earlier post – and I don’t mean any harm by that).

    The other really important thing is that a relationship with a psychopath involves TWO people. The psychopath will behave very differently with a different kind of victim. You and I come from very, very different backgrounds; yours is full of family pathology and mine had none. This difference might be helpful to you.

    When my ex-girl-fiend raged on me for being a couple of hours late after a 400-mile car drive, I walked away and NEVER again told her when I would be leaving, because I knew she would add 7 hours to my departure time and expect me to be precisely “on time.” She hated that, but I firmly told her that when the day came where she would apologize and convince me she could accept accidents, flat tires, border delays and police roadblocks (yeah, one summer morning a couple of inmates escaped from a maximum security prison and the state police stopped and searched every car travelling in both directions) – that’s when I’d tell her when I was leaving. That’s one of the best boundaries I ever put up, because all of the aforementioned road-trip events did eventually happen during our relationship.

    Another similar incident was when we were “negotiating” (I use the term loosely, a more precise description would be “capitulating to”) moving in together. She demanded cash under the table for my (inflated) share of the expenses, and I told her no, for me this was a significant and bona fide business expense and I absolutely needed a receipt with her signature on it. She refused, so I simply continued to stay at the hotel. A month later, seeing that I was indeed serious, she relented and finally agreed to provide signed receipts.

    [Sidebar: I can't resist pointing out that a couple of self-styled "experts" have pointed out that everyone (including myself) that gets involved with a psychopath has "bad boundaries." I disagree; victims come in all flavours and psychopaths are very adept at adapting to each target's individual characteristics. They deftly employ "boundary erosion" on people with firm boundaries. Everyone, please beware of these "experts" and their automatic diagnoses of your "faults."]

    Kelli, the most likely reason that your ex’s marriage and new wife look so “perfect” that you and she are very different people, and your ex is using an entirely different strategy on her (to paraphrase what Claudia wrote). At eight months in, my relationshit was also largely “perfect” (as I had not yet begun to succumb to her manipulations), so I’m not at all surprised at your perception of your ex’s marriage.

    From what you’ve written here and previously, I strongly suspect that the common thread between my relationshit and your ex’s current one is exactly the same: the psychopath is getting precisely what he/she wants (money, sex, respectability), and there’s no need to employ abuse to get it. In fact, abuse will only risk his currently “perfect” lifestyle, and he’s way too smart and devious to allow that. I’m actually stunned by how closely your ex’s current relationshit parallels my former one (with the genders reversed, of course). Everyone thought we were so perfect for each other. But it was all a ruse in the end.

    As Claudia pointed out above, psychopaths don’t change. I foolishly believed that mine had indeed changed, that she had finally met the right guy (as opposed to her ex-husband who she was trashing in public and fleecing in the divorce court). At about 14 months in, she started treating me exactly as she had treated him.

    Kelli, I think you can take solace in knowing that the day will certainly come when a “life event” occurs and your psychopathic ex won’t get his way and the abuse will start in earnest! It’s not “her,” it’s the strategies that he’s employing with her that are different. I hope this helps you sleep better tonight, and I send huge hugs. – Julian.

  151. ((((((((((((((( julian )))))))))))))))

    thank you, my friend. That helps me much with the way you put the new relationshit and the psychopathic strategies into perspective. It is indeed true that the strategy would be different based upon a different individual. Ironically, this also speaks to their ability to morph for the new victim. Normal people don’t do that, nor do they NEED to do that. Your helpful post also points out something else that goes directly to the reality that they do not change, that the mask cannot stay in place. Because the relationshit is not real to begin with and the psychopath is “morphing” to the new victim, it is fake. A lie. Manipulation. He changed everything, Julian, even his religious and political affiliation. I wouldn’t “know” this man now if I saw him on the street. Thank you again for your thoughtful response. Kel

  152. Kelli, would it suprise you to learn that the traits and behaviours I listed above were all gleaned from literature and information sites dealing with borderline personality disorder? Re erratic and dramatic- erratic captures their instability, and dramatic- our lives spiral into a drama once we have opened our lives up to a borderline and psychopath.
    Claudia, I’m so looking forward to your book dropping through my letter box; re Cleckley’s mask of sanity analogy; in borderline pathology this is referred to as their false self. But they both pertain to someone who appears and sounds as though they are fully rounded, whole, healthy people with a well developed moral and ethical constitution etc. But when you observe their behaviour over time you see their emotional disorder in action and they contradict everything that their false self represents them selves as being. Why I find totally bizzare is that they can never actually see it, or deny they see it; it’s difficult to work out what the hell is happening with them here!

  153. Kelli, Julian makes a very valid point. Your ex’es interactions will be different because he is interacting with someone else. But the same personality which is at his core is there; his pathology has not miraculously mended now he is with someone else.

  154. Hi everyone
    Keli, I think it must be awful to bump into the new “love” of your ex. I know I would never want that to happen to me, it was bad enough hearing about it from him through an email.
    But what you have to remember, although its hard going, is that as Julian and Michael detail, the abuse will be in the post. Paths just change their M.O and their personalities to suit what they want or can use from that person in whatever “relationship” they are in. I have no doubt that my ex will be being wonderful when his new partner is being fooled by his lies, when she’s not demanding too much of his emotional time. But when she does her faults will be fired at her, the wheel will turn, set to maximum damage and his doubts about their sex life not being “as exciting, good or adventurous” and just being “ok” will be turned round on her. As long as he can sleep around behind her back it will be fine, for now. But as Claudia has said, that is no fun to these types, as the fun part is seeing someone hurt, so they do eventually show their true side, as what would the fun be in pretending you were decent?? None. The fun part is when they start to pick you apart and demand that you stay with them and put up with their unreasonable behaviour. My ex was with his ex gf for two years because she gave him money, paid for great holidays, he lived with her in a beautiful house. But at the end of the day he abused her and was vile to her just like every other girl he has met or will meet. They fundamentally never change, its a ticking time bomb with every partner.
    All that said though, it doesn’t stop the hurt, and the blow to your gut and the “why was i not sufferable enough”…with mine i asked too much, i analysed too much, i saw him for what he was too quickly. It was like that film the Devil’s advocate where Reeves’s wife could see all the lawyers as demons, their true selves. That was what it was like for me. And he hated that. This new woman of your ex will not see him for what he is. For now. But it will come, like it always does. Its no conciliation though, not for your heart anyway. But maybe a bit for your head.
    Love lesleyxxxxxx

  155. Kelli and everyone, your ex appeared to change so much with the new partner because he’s mirroring her. That is one of psychopaths’ main traits, mirroring their newest victims during the honeymoon phase, which can last a year or even longer.

    Moreover, psychopaths also change their personas out of boredom. They get bored with others, bored with their jobs, bored with their living environments and, yes, even bored with themselves. They change masks or personas, experiment with new identities, professions and locations, not just with an endless supply of victims and partners. Claudia

  156. Michael,

    Not at all really. I believe that borderlines are female psychopaths. When it comes down to it, the behaviors are ultimately the same. The only difference I see in borderlines, vs. psychopathic traits is the extremes to which borderlines show emotionally and often. My ex’s didn’t do that so much, but everything else is positively glaring! Michael, so in reading those sites, what made you draw the conclusion that it was more psychopathic than borderline? I think all the Cluster B’s are the same. It’s interesting to me how many do think that borderlines can be “cured” or “helped” to live full, healthy active lives. Maybe a few can, but the majority, I don’t believe it. Kel

  157. Michael, it has been very helpful to have everyone’s input about this. I’ve really been triggered the last few days, but it’s finally calming down a bit now. Kel

  158. Lesley,

    Ironic that the one thing I dreaded and feared the most was actually running into one or both of them. I’m glad it was her and not the both of of them though.

    She is nothing like me or his ex wives. I would never have thought that this person would be someone he’d choose. It’s interesting because I knew that prior to our break up anyway. It didn’t matter what the person looked like, it only mattered what he wanted, which was money, which is what he got.

    After Julian’s post last night, It really hit me that this man I knew, or thought I knew, I never knew at all. He was never real. Never existed. Not for anyone. While I would recognize him on the street somewhere, it would be in that he probably looks the same, but his entirety would be completely different now. It would be that of a stranger to me. This was, even though painful, a very good sign of progress for me, I think, inevitably. I now realize the full impact of the duping involved and that it was full of lies. All of it. And he’s lying now too. I was worrying about him contacting me or trying too. I still get those weird calls. But now I’m thinking that perhaps it isn’t him at all. He has a new life, a new wife and is spending lots of money, taking nice vacations, living the high life. I’m all but forgotten and in his mind that person never existed, so neither did I. Maybe that is a blessing for me. He’ll leave me alone and that the paranoia I feel in his wanting to hurt me or continue to destroy me is largely in my head now. Thank God for new supply! Kel

  159. Claudia,

    Mine doesn’t change jobs or environments. Same job 25 years, same home for ten.

    I’d like to study more about the boredom however. What causes the chronic boredom? And how that plays out for a psychopath. Kel

  160. Kel, I’ll repost an article next week on psychopaths and boredom, since it’s one of their key features. As with all of their characteristics, the chronic boredom stems from their incapacity to bond emotionally with others. If you can’t bond with others, don’t care about them, what’s left? Cheap thrills, malicious games, changing partners, jobs and locations–anything to divert yourself and escape from your own inner emptiness.

    Some psychopaths do stay at the same job, however, because they value the mask of normalcy/sanity so much. Your ex apparently operates this way. But even those usually change partners (your ex is on his third wife) and also have a lot of affairs and shady deals behind their main partners’ backs. There’s no psychopath that will behave decently towards others because psychopaths lack character, conscience and heart. For them, the air of decency and stability is only a mask. Claudia

  161. Kelli, I think Claudia was just giving examples of things they do to relieve boredom. My ex appeared stable also, but needed to have 3-5 fancy vacations per year plus summer weekends at the Jersey Shore. She also got lots of extra excitement from duping and fleecing me, her ex-husband, her father and her clients. If I’m not mistaken your ex got his jollies from “other women.” They come in all sorts of flavors, don’t they? — Julian.

  162. Hi keli/Julian and Claudia
    Yes they all get bored. My ex even admitted he did, that he found it difficult to maintain interest in one person after he had noted their faults, be it physical/mental/habits/interests. Envisaging living with those faults was too difficult for him and he then just went and found someone with less faults or more perfect for him. That was him being nice about just basically messing every person he’s ever been with around, ruining their lives and breaking their hearts and dreams. But it was him that “found it hard going”…i mean WTF??? The arrogance and level of self immersion in these people is just beyond belief.
    It is best to try and think that you didn’t know him. Because in a way you didn’t, though you do know what he IS UNDERNEATH. I think its just part and parcel of the healing and getting through process, that you hit this wall sometimes and its upsetting. But i think as time goes by maybe the logic gets to your emotional side eventually, maybe just little by little – and then hopefully it will be better. Or a bit better. I hope it does as i do still get very upset about it all, but there is more me to me now than there was a while ago…
    Lots of love
    ibelxxx

  163. Claudia, Keli, Michael, Lesley (all) – Kelli I have to ask you how would YOU treat someone who was bringing you home 40 bucks worth of top steak and has a money tree? (if you were a path that is) probably about as well as my x path would have treated me if I brought him home different sexual partners!!!!! I would have been VERY useful to him He isnt going to bite the hand of someone who feeds him, ha ha no pun intended there. My x-path treats his GF exactly for the role that she plays because that is what she gives him and that is what he NEEDS in his life so he is not going to destroy( up front that is) the useful purpose she serves him. Its interesting as I now have come to FULLY understand the dynamics of her USED role vs my USED role. Claudia, he so SICKLY tried to convince me if I gave in to these sexual experiences with him that we would share much time together and I AM 100% sure if I would have accepted that role I would have received many little perks, gifts, maybe a little short vacation time together, etc…. slavery and bribery come to mind and for so long I always asked myself what she had that I didnt have but I was asking myself the WRONG question he is doing to her the SAME thing he did to me we are BOTH used as objects only to fill a purpose that he needs in his life. Who would I rather be I ask myself his GF or his side mistress that helps relieve his perpetual boredom? Well he lured me into that role the SAME way he lured her into the role of being the wife/girlfriend he mirrored her as well, promised her the moon, stars.. whatever she was into, HE was into, same intense sex, but ALL OF IT was nothing but pretense. Well I can bet you sure as hell after 10 years those stars are NOT the same stars she now has with him, and the sex is VERY infrequent, most likely after all these years sex is maintenance to him with her – she found out after he took the mirror down that what he promised her and what he was is NOT AT ALL what she got. today. EVERYTHING he does with her and for her is PURE MAINTENANCE and I would never want to be in a relationship with someone that would just maintain me in order for me to stay with them, gotta change the oil now and then to keep it running for me. He kept my motor running also but ONLY for what he wanted me for. So you see I WOULD NEVER want her role and I certainly could have never given him the role he tried to cultivate with me – Its really one of the same BOTH of us just USED and maintained for a really sick agenda, both of us just used as objects and both of us never truly loved – Kelli he isnt content with her anymore than he was content with me NOBODY AND NOTHING can ever satisfy and sustain a psychopath because of what they lack internally IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! Do you know why I know that Kelli? Because I ALSO was lacking something within myself (not the same as paths though) I also was lacking something inside myself I was not seeing that made me so vulnerable to a path and did I find what I thought I was missing in my life from another person? OF COURSE NOT – moral of the story you can only find from within what you seek from others to fulfill and that also applies to the paths; however we are healthy enough to recognize that they NEVER WILL. x0x0 Linda

  164. Julian,

    Yep, he was the KING of triangulation. It wasn’t fun unless there was another woman to triangulate. I’m sure he has great “fun” in torturing his ex wife using the children and the new dupe to do it. That’s enough triangulation for anyone. I also noticed that he was one to be a “home body” and do all kinds of projects on his house, some completed (and if they were, it was a very shoddy job) and others left uncompleted. He was a hoarder and there was crap everywhere, as well as a compulsive shopper. Always needing something new. He spent money like no one I’ve ever seen, even when it wasn’t there to spend. This one is a good catch and she readily feeds him the money he needs to spend, spend spend! He does the same thing with other pursuits. Purchased two motorcycles. Lost interest. Played musical instruments, sax in particular. Lost interest. Played in a band, lost interest and cut down the band members. Played piano in church, lost interest and changed religious affiliations with new love. The only thing that he ever really enjoyed or paid attention too was movies and sports. He was a media obsessive man. Always had the tv on and there was a tv in almost every single room. The room could not be quiet. If the tv wasn’t on in bed, he had white noise going. he simply could not tolerate silence. It was the oddest thing…I wonder if that had something to do with the boredom too. Kel

  165. (((Kelli))) I think that your understanding of the wholesale duping is a huge progress indicator. I too had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around the fact that the first several months with my ex weren’t “great” — they were totally fake, and I was thoroughly duped. Most of us have no frame of reference in which to understand a completely invented persona — all we’ve ever seen are people who are (mostly) what they claim to be, perhaps with a few exaggerations and hidden defects. But a completely fake individual — a Star Trek holodeck character, if you will — is just completely beyond the realm of our comprehension. At least in Star Trek, we know right up front that once we cross the holodeck gate, we’re entering a fabricated reality. We all talk about “the mask,” but it’s a far more difficult concept to grasp than it appears. Now that you’re fully understanding this, you’re much more likely to permanently see your ex as the pathetic, twisted individual that he really is. Congratulations on a major step forward, and I’m so glad I could help a friend. — Julian.

  166. Kelli, wow! You’re the third person to tell me that their psychopathic ex needed to have white noise going in the bedroom! Mine absolutely had to have a fan running 365 nights a year; she said it masked the irritating nighttime noises of cars driving by, dogs barking, etc. I suspect that it has more to do with psychopaths being easily irritated (“I demand silence!” and not getting it) rather than boredom. — Julian.

  167. Linda,

    you make a really good point here in talking about your ex and his gf. However, that relationshit is old, but you KNOW without a doubt that he is STILL cheating on her and you KNOW without a doubt that there were others. THERE is your blessing. I don’t know that. I will never know that. Psychopaths exhibit their behaviors differently, just as there are different victims that they mirror and morph too. I realized that mine DOES NOT like to be alone, AT ALL, and marriage for him is a top priority. He LOVES being married! Because in his mind, it guarantees that he is NOT alone. During the very short couple of months before he met the new wife, he was going absolutely INSANE being alone. He dated and dated MANY women prior to hooking this one. He even told me he didn’t want to be “alone” the rest of his life. Well, if this is so, WHY do you treat each one like shit? This is what i DON”T understand. If being alone is that detrimental to him, why does he do things to sabotage it all when he ISN”T alone anymore? With this one, he wanted money too. But being alone was absolute torture for him. I saw it as a real fear, an obsessive cause. I’m seeing that not all psychopaths exhibit their behaviors and traits in the same ways. yes, claudia, mine has stability in his job and with his home. His image is everything to him, right down to how his yard looks, the car he drives and comparing his house to others constantly. His house IS the lure. It’s beautiful! Now I understand what Sandra Brown writes about in her book regarding what women fall for in the PRESENTATION the psychopath uses. She falls FOR THE IMAGE he presents. And his is a damned good one too. I fell for it getting into it and I still fall prey to it now that I’m out of it too. The images of stability and home life always bothered me about him. He was sooooooo good at giving off that stability vibe. “I want to keep the house so my kids have a place they can still call home”. Barf. Kel

  168. Lesley,

    This is the question that I have about it and still don’t have an answer. Are these behaviors INEVITABLE with everyone? No matter what strategies they use? perhaps this is where I’m stuck. What is INEVITABLE in behavior with them? Kel

  169. Kelli, you’re also the second person to tell me that their psychopathic ex has a chronic habit of doing shoddy jobs around the house. Mine did too, and I think it’s because they’re totally incapable of putting their heart into anything they do (because they don’t have one; I’m reminded of the humorous cover artwork in Sheridan’s book where the heart is replaced by a set of gears). — Julian.

  170. Linda, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. For almost a year, I was the patsy that paid the mortgage and taxes every month and brought home the $40 steaks and Hawaiian tuna. Any self-respecting psychopath (and they ALL are) dances with glee when that happens. They’ll find many other ways to get their jollies in order to preserve their “benefits” stream.

    But like you say, nothing can satisfy them for very long. The money, the nice food, all the free home repairs and improvements — they only want more and more as time goes by, and that will surely lead to the demise of the relationshit. — Julian.

  171. Julian,

    Interesting. So is this what you witnessed? Having given so much money, time, etc and all that was wanted was more from her? I see a pattern here….perhaps you are correct in that my ex’s current relationshit parallels your own with your ex in many ways..the only difference is that he’s MARRIED to her. Kel

  172. CLaudia,

    I understand that the boredom to them is like a severe itch that needs scratching. If that is so, how is it that mine could sit for hours, drinking and watching sports on tv or on the internet or having sex? Maybe it’s different for her, but when I was with him, THAT was boring and extremely stressful too! Kel

  173. Kelli: I have also read that the nice things they have and acquire are just PROPS and they really could care less about them it only serves as an image to them everything they have is STRICTLY for image to make them look good, nothing deeper than that. Thats a joke, a place they can call home? He will NEVER KNOW what a REAL home is. Barf is right!!!!

    I dont know if he is cheating or WHAT he really does, for all I know he has slowed down but with his history of sexual perversion and the need to demean women I am sure he has his side life of such supply. I really dont CARE either way if he has 100 on the side or 1 on the side he is a ruthless sick rotten bastard with NO CONSCIENCE OR REMORSE and who ever lives with him is living with JUST THAT.

    Interesting to see when her money is gone what use she is to him Kelli? I can only base my assessment of him from what he did to me that is my only truth and what I KNOW FOR SURE and it was pretty horiffic!!! I know without a doubt I am NOT the only one he has done this to and either is yours. I will write you more later Kelli I have to fax something now at the library but will get back to you x0x0 Linda

  174. Michael,

    I found this video and wanted to share it with you. Tell me what you think of it. Kel

  175. Linda,

    I was watching a few Thomas Sheridan videos this morning that I’ve not seen before. One of them was about the predatory consciousness that psychopaths exhibit and the concept of evil. This is fascinating to me because there is no correlation in science between the brain and consciousness. It cannot be seen, it is spiritual in nature, even though there is proof now, via fMRI imaging that certain areas of the brain do not function in psychopaths. Mainly in the frontal cortex where emotion is processed. He has no issue with the concept of evil, nor does Sandra Brown as she speaks of this in her book, “Women Who Love Psychopaths”.

    When I was listening to this, I realized something very profound and had only thought about a few times, maybe even mentioned it. I thought it was just me and not the EVIL ENERGY I was feeling while with him. Thomas tells the story of having been in NY on the subway and getting off at a certain point and standing next to a man he never spoke to but that he could feel his dark, evil presence. I feel this is THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH when it comes to psychopaths and that there ARE evil entities that exist. I remember towards the end of the relationshit, when I was at his house spending the night, and he would lie there and berate me till he fell asleep out of the blue, I felt this INTENSE EVIL. when he fell asleep, it was extremely dark, the white noise he had was going as it was every night, but it was evil. It FILLED the room. I was SO frightened, I could not sleep and the few hours that I DID sleep, I’d awaken feeling as if my energy had been SUCKED out of me!
    Having said that, I’m connecting the dots to the early days of having been with him and the anxiety felt at his presence. Whenever I knew he was coming over, I was INSTANTLY anxiety ridden, even EARLY in the relationshit. What I didn’t realize is that this was my BODY’S REACTION TO FEAR AND EVIL. EVIL PROVOKES FEAR. It was an ever present while with him. This nagging feeling of anxiety. It NEVER left me when I was in his presence. As the abuse worsened and his mask was slipping more and more, my anxiety increased to outright panic attacks and PTSD. But I will NEVER EVER forget that feeling of absolute FEAR in the dark of night, lying next to this man. The anxiety was gone at that point. It was just fear.

    I was sleeping next to evil. Kel

  176. Kelli, I have watched the video and I couldnt agree with sheridan more. I think his criticisms towards psychiatry as a discourse hold true for many psychiatric diagnosis including depression. What is worrying is that the American Psychiatric Association work closely with pharmaceutical companies and often invent new diagnoses than low and behold market the cure. ADHD in children is one example, prozac and other SSRI’s are another- happiness in a bottle!
    Sheridan raises the important point of making the distinction between behaviours and traits.
    Look at this way, how many of us have lacked empathy at times because we have felt low, or distracted, preoccupied or had our own issues going on? How many of us have been unfaithful or breached someones trust? how many of us have lied? how many of us have acted impulsively? how many of us have felt so low and self absorbed, and behaved selfishly etc etc etc. The work of Thomas szaz, R.D laing, Michelle foucault and other contributers to the anti or post psychiatry movement have made outstanding contributions to the medicalisation of “normal” human experience. Check out the work of Rufus May and his position and groundbreaking work on psychosis for example. He is a clinical psychologist, I have met him several times.
    Borderline personality disorder is the medicalisation of psychopathy.

  177. All; Psychopaths do not say sorry and mean it
    Psychopaths do not have a consistent emotional relationship with us
    Psychopaths switch their emotions dramatically exposing us to abrupt and rapid cycling of mean and sweet patterns of relating, they love me they love me not
    Psychopaths lie and manipulate us consistently, or over periods of time
    psychopaths have no emotional memory therefore no emotional narrative with us
    Psychopaths oscillate between idealisation and devaluation, and this can happen in months, days, hours, or minutes
    Psychopaths withdraw all care and concern for us when we challenge them
    psychopaths threaten us with emotional blackmail

  178. Cont-
    Psychopaths emotionally belittle us, put us down, and try to emotionally dominate us
    Psychopaths do not and cannot emotionally relate or bond with us
    Psychopaths do not discuss EVER their failings or flaws
    Psychopaths cannot account for their behaviour that makes sense
    Psychopaths blame and shame us while at the same time take any responsibility for their behaviour EVER
    Psychopaths are not selfish, they are utterly self serving
    Psychopaths do not grieve
    Psychopaths have a complete absense of insight
    Psychopaths have no emotional memory

  179. Michael,

    I think you make an extremely valid and critical point, alas, the APA’s association with pharmaceutical companies. This is why we have so much MIS diagnosis as well as MEDICALISING others and their psychiatric dx’s. HOW PSYCHOPATHIC, yes? The control grid even exists within the realms of psychology and that is SO CLEAR to me. I completely agree with you and with Sheridan about the HUMAN CONDITION, we ALL have done the things you’ve outlined, but what is missed is to what EXTENT and how CONSISTENTLY it is done. When we are speaking within the realms of personality disorders, we are no longer talking about the human condition, but a predatory consciousness that gives NEW MEANING to lying, manipulating, cheating, stealing, etc.

    Michael, one of the things my therapist keeps telling me and what she disclosed to me recently was how I tend to PATHOLOGIZE myself. This is why she has been reluctant to discuss personality disorders with me, because her perspective with me is one of NORMALIZING me, rather than pathologizing me because I do that so well myself. All of my mistakes that I’ve made in my life, all of my reactions with PTSD since the break up of this relationshit have involved pathologizing myself. I have fallen into the category of those who might dx my failing in life, chalked up to a personality disorder of some sort. This, I have discovered, is VERY common with adult children of pathologicals, to which we tend to lean toward dx ourselves and what is familiar, PATHOLOGY. I have so much of it in my family, I’m amazed that I’ve come out the other side, WITHOUT IT. I’ve been to three therapists now who REFUSED to dx me with a personality disorder even at my insistence LOL…..that’s how much the PTSD was affecting me after a lifetime of pathology.

    In truth, it’s a miracle that I walked out of all of that stinkin pathology without one myself, even though I do suffer from PTSD and some depression. I am highly aware of the presence of the predatory consciousness around me and FEEL it within my energy zones, probably because I HAVE lived with it so long. If you have not experienced pathology to the degree that you are raised with it, but had only ONE experience with it, try to imagine a LIFETIME of it. There is no way, other than here and with my therapist that i would tell anyone that my ENTIRE family is pathological. People can’t believe it is exists, let alone ONE experience with it, how about TONS of experience and LOTS of people with it? This makes it doubly hard to heal. It is also very discouraging when the mental health field wants you to take a pill and make it all better. It doesn’t work that way. It CAN”T work that way if healing is to happen. The issue needs to be addressed head on. For those who have an actual dx personality disorder or for those who are victims of such. It’s fascinating that the mental health field is so ready to prescribe a good mood, or a positive outlook, without looking at the real true CAUSE of why it isn’t happening. Know why it’s not? Because if they can’t assign a false, made up fad dx or if it’s not curable, it doesn’t EXIST. It pathologizes the therapeutic community when the actual pathology belongs to the pharmaceutical companies and the APA and APS that supports it. Kel

  180. Michael,

    I think the issue of emotional memory needs to be explored further. Claudia, an article about this issue, as well as the concept of evil within psychopathology and the body’s reactions to it is also critical. I would like to take a poll here of how many of you noticed anxiety reactions from the beginning or your relationshits or shortly after they began. Kel

  181. Psychopaths are emotionally blind to others
    Psychopaths are complete in their callousness
    Psychopaths immediately dissconnect from us
    Psychopaths are devoid of compassion
    Psychopaths cry and play the pity card when we challenge them
    Psychopaths lie, distort, confabulate, project, deny, blame, distort, gaslight, rewrite history
    Psychopaths have a need to control

  182. Michael,

    BTW, excellent, EXCELLENT list!!! I hope this will go into your book as a list of psychopathic behaviors aligned with traits. Excellent job! Kel

  183. All, and in between doing all of the above, they act perfectly normal; so said Mr Cleckly, and he was so right.

  184. Michael,

    LOL, with all of that, who has TIME for normal? No wonder we were all spinning! Kel

  185. Claudia,

    BTW, I’m just about done with your book on psychopaths. It is excellent and you’ve integrated the work of cleckley masterfully. I’ve not read all of the “Mask of Sanity” however, what I have read of it is at times, difficult because the articulation is much different, but you are very good at making distinctions that create reading cleckley with ease. Excellent book, Claudia and I’ll write a review on it when I complete it. Kel

  186. Kelli: I am back from the library had to fax some things for our bankruptcy (such a fun thing to go thru) at any rate, yes sleeping next to PURE EVIL maybe this might explain why after our person to person encounters driving home for 2.5 hours I had to pull over on the side of the road and sleep or I should say literally collapse; it was SOOOO draining in every respect being in his presence that it doesnt hit you until you are away from them; he always slept well but I remember one time in the morning he said, Geez you toss and turn alot when you sleep you never stopped moving- that was my subconscience hard at work telling me I was in a BAD BAD situation and what I was doing was damaging me. I NEVER felt comfortable with him NEVER I was always a nervous wreck EXTREME ANXIETY from within on a few occasions I took xanax to calm myself before seeing him That should have been a huge red flag and it was. He showed me his custom made bar with the brick on the bar matching his fireplace and he showed me a bottle of wine called “BITCH” he thought that was so clever (he would) well they also have a wine called BASTARD wish I would have sent it to him. Those of us who have a conscience can REALLY tune into what is evil and just NOT RIGHT and they on the other hand can tune into human weakness and vulnerabilities like a finely tuned radar because of their LACK of conscience; at least that is what I am inclined to believe? I listen also to some of Sheridans clips I have already listened to because its SO MUCH to understand the pathology can be pretty complex and I always have a clear moment of “oh now I get it” when I listen to it again. I wish I could send you a pic of him his eyes would make you literally shake – I saw his evil during a heightened moment of sex, he was unaware my eyes were open and what I saw in his eyes was NOT that of passion or even excitement it was PURE PURE EVIL, BLACK and I couldnt even see his pupils he QUICKLY shut his eyes when he saw that my eyes were open and I was looking at him; I remember thinking geez it was the look of maybe some killer getting off stabbing someone it was a CRAZED fixation of his eyes and I will NEVER forget it as long as I live. Could you do something for me Kelli? I want you to watch his clip on “spiritual recovery” Thomas reminds us of what we have experienced he describes it as literally having seen the GATES OF HELL I am going to try and post it for everyone else to listen to. Afterall that is what each and everyone of us has experienced, we experienced something so damn evil that in some respects its almost impossible to come to terms with what EXACTLY ripped thru our lives. EVERYONE, Lesley, Julian, Michael, and all those I might have forgotten this short interview will truly help you feel better about yourselves. x0x0x0 Linda

  187. ALL: PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS, ITS VERY HEALING

    xoxoxo Linda

  188. Linda, how true! We all gave literal meaning to the phrase “dancing with the Devil”. Claudia

  189. Kel, I really appreciate what you say about Dangerous Liaisons and, of course, the amazon review of it. Boy, you read really fast! You’re a speed reader. Claudia

  190. Michael, thanks for these helpful and succinct lists of symptoms! Claudia

  191. Julian, with all pathologicals, the more you give in to them the more they demand. They’re constantly raising the bar and asking you to jump through new hoops, to feel a sense of power over you. Claudia

  192. Linda, for psychopaths, both objects and people are mere POSSESSIONS, that give them status (or get worn out and old). Claudia

  193. Linda, OMG this video is unbelievable; and resonates with me and my own path towards healing! Michael

  194. Kelli, your psychopathic ex, like all of them, need constant entertainment and diversion. They seem outwardly calm, but inside they feel empty and thirsty for power and entertainment. Claudia

  195. Julian, during the first few months they just hide their lying, cheating, flaws and deviancy in general better. But psychopaths and other pathologicals are the SAME people before as after they take their mask of sanity off. Claudia

  196. Linda, very well said! Psychopaths match need for need, as Brown states in Women Who Love Psychopaths. That’s how they lure you in order to ultimately destroy you.

  197. Lesley, by the time the psychopaths notice your flaws they’ve already grown tired of you and either found or are actively seeking someone else to be number one on their priority list of targets/dupes. Claudia

  198. Claudia, thankyou re your comments re my list of traits above. If i was to be transparent I generated that list because Kelli got me thinking. Kelli challenged me to think about my own doubts around my exes pathology, and my own personal issues around why i tolerated her emotionally abusive behaviour for so long. Was she just PMT or having a bad day? Part of the reason behind out torment is that we suffer from doubt; which is born out of our own humanity and failings. Michael

  199. Linda,

    This succession of interviews is excellent. I’ve watched them.

    Kel

  200. Claudia,

    Well, being in scholarshit requires quick reading of very LONG, boring textbooks. Through speed reading I learned to cut to the chase, so I didn’t have to read it all, nevertheless, I’ve read every single word of your book, just as I have other psychopathy books I’ve purchased or have been given to me. When I’m passionate about something, I can finish a book within a few hours. Kel

  201. Michael; Thats PMS, not PMT, ha ha ha or maybe there is a PMT? I can tell you I suffer from PMS or once did and I never acted that way I was always emotional and would cry – I am glad you found the interview helpful in how you feel at this stage. We really need to give ourselves some TLC or is that TLT? ha ha for what we have been through and are surviving because I will be damned if I will spend much more of my life focusing on this sub human although at times the pain of it all forces us to. No Michael this was not a result of PMS (if that is what you meant) this was the result of what she is; disordered, evil and just plain mentally insane. xo Linda

  202. Wow,

    There is so much to comment on and so much going on within!

    First, Michael. I’m SO humbled by your post above. I truly believe, on a spiritual level, that after this experience, we are all given as gifts to one another for the further pursuits of healing.

    Linda, I’d like to comment further with regards to Thomas Sheridan and his videos. I found the book to be good, but his videos are much more profound for me. I think the reason he is so successful in getting his message across is because he is NOT related to any academia, nor any research projects that fund him. He speaks only from his own experiences and an incredible intuition about it, and through further study. Funny how some of us rate a book or an article or some other read, based upon spelling errors or editing, or even the publisher if a book is involved, and assume that the writer, because they are not professional, has nothing of importance to say to the general public about any issue, but in this case, about psychopathy. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Believing that or thinking that, refusing to read another’s work or reading and assuming that it”s not enlightening because of errors in editing, publishing or that there isn’t some statistical back up with regards to personal insights, in my opinion, forfeits the victims experiences altogether. NONE of us here are “experts” in the real sense, such as Sandra Brown or Robert Hare. None of us here, are professional writers, such as Claudia or soon to be Michael, but that doesn’t mean that our insights and our spiritual/emotional growth is not worth the words we often blog daily with regards to our experiences with psychopathy.

    While there has been much criticism of Sheridan’s work because he is NOT a professional in any way with regards to psychopathy, there are more readers of his work simply because of his INSIGHTS through his messages. WE ALL have knowledge now and something important to contribute through our own acquired or newly acquired personal gifts as a result of this experience. There IS a higher level of understanding in the spiritual realm. What we all experienced was human EVIL in its most depraved form.

    What is most troubling to me, and most likely the reason for my angst lately, is something coming up within and I’m not able to pinpoint it just yet. It is the same thought over and over. I find this happens after a trigger has occurred. I am filled with doubt about my own experience now and him. It is interesting to be able to see right through with anothers experience, but so frustrating as not to see my own. I find myself upset, even irritated at others spinning because it is EASY for me to see it. It is NOT easy to see my own. It is a deeply spiritual thing to try to accept and embrace the idea that this man was anything less than good. That there must have been an OUNCE of feeling on his part for me, that somehow, it was me, not all these other women that he captured and convinced me I was not worthy of owning the place of “wife” in his trophy case.

    I have more questions than answers. Filled with doubt, I do not know how to resolve the evil that STILL lives within when I want it to be GONE, DONE, OVER WITH. I doubt what I saw, but I do not doubt what I felt. That anxiety and fear still lives within me, long after he is gone, almost a year now. I miss him because I doubt. I only know half the story. The compartmentalizing was so good and he hid so well, that I will never know the whole story….and what I feared the most, has now come to pass……..in my mind, he is mended, changed…..just like he said. If he just met the right woman.

    There is apart of me that wants revenge. There is apart of me filled with rage at “losing”. This is part and parcel of the doubt. The wasting of years and time. I have not yet figured out how to reconcile it and the questions that need to be asked to me, to challenge this thinking have not yet been asked. I do not know how to resolve this in my mind, so there is no more doubt. I cannot get over the feeling, now intense fear, that I was wrong. That he’s well now. That it was just me, just like he said. Blamed for everything. Right down to his pancreatitis. That if he didn’t have me around and had someone else, he could be happy…”I just want to be loved. I just wanted to be accepted”….he said over and over. What the fuck did he THINK I was doing while putting up with his abuse for years? I’m FULL Of rage. FULL of rage. Kel

  203. Kelli, your rage is justified, since you were emotionally abused and used by this fraud of a person for ten years. But the theme of rage and the theme of writing about your experience with the psychopath(s) ties together in this way: writing and helping others is one of the best ways to channel the rage and any negative emotion towards the psychopath to a constructive end.

    As you stated, anyone on this psychopathy blog (or on another) who writes about their experiences with psychopaths a) with honesty, b) thoughtfully and c) with compassion towards other victims is going to help both others and oneself. One doesn’t have to be a professional therapist or writer, although soon you will be both. In fact, the most helpful therapists are also those who speak and write honestly, clearly and from the heart, based on their experiences with victims. Claudia

  204. Claudia,

    I’ve had FAR too much pathology stench this week. I’m seeing how it affects me. I have to learn to find ways of coping STILL with all of it. My energy is just totally sucked dry every time I’m in the presence of pathology or it calls me or I have deal with my son. Today was another court day and I’m absolutely FRIED. Just from my son, not to mention the “phone calls” have started up again. It is SO frustrating! What IS it??? Do these people really have a seventh sense when you’re trying to heal and get as far AWAY from them as possible????? Kel

  205. Kelli and All:Kelli,All – I do agree with your prospective about Sheridan; he has no personal experience from the HEART nor was he ever in a relationship with a path as we were; however I think he did have a profound experience on a professional level in dealing with possibly more than one. I think his experience was more of a “snakes in suits” experience (correct me if I am wrong) I DO BELIEVE some form of trauma in his life did bring him to the spiritual healing he speaks of. So WHO are the REAL experts in this field? Hare, Cleckley,? they are the experts of STUDY but the true experts and professionals in the end are US, it is OUR insights and experiences they interview for their case studies and books. The doctors can sit back and say look what happens to someone that falls victim to a cluster B disordered person; they KNOW the psychological damage it causes, but they will NEVER know what that damage feels like; they are experts in the clinical sense but we are the experts in every other sense, the human sense and that is the most important because after all that is what we are. My intrigue with Sheridan is strictly based on the awareness he was able to convey. Actually it was Claudia when I discovered this site who instilled in me that a psychopath is nothing but a predator; its also nice to WATCH someone live on the clips go into detail to further illustrate whats behind their predatory mind set. Could Sheridan for one minute feel the psychological damage that we experienced?., NO, but Claudia can I consider Claudia an expert on all levels with this disorder. Claudia conducts a very intelligent blog based on her knowledge and experience; and while I am not the best contributor I gain much insight and healing from just reading what others say and what she posts.

    I am not quite sure what you believe you could have “won” in the relationship? vs how you feel that you “lost”? Although I have said this to myself many times, I lost, I was cast out, spit out and discarded while he remains with her and this makes me feel as if I LOST? REALLY? So I am to believe I am somehow deficient or lacking something that he did not choose me and I am an utter failure? According to who? IN HIS EYES? Its difficult for me to put much merit in that based on WHAT he is. As perverted as he was maybe he likes her genitalia better than he did mine, ha ha who the hell knows but I KNOW I did NOT LOSE, I WON because I made the choice to remove myself from a disordered person and it doesnt matter who he wants to share his life with and for what reasons but you can bet Kelli the reasons and intent are NOT genuine, hard for me to imagine that we BOTH slept next to evil and they live the life of a saint with their partners. Maybe THEIR reasons are sick and wrong in choosing who they chose, I mean we arent dealing with someone with a full deck of cards here. By the way I know he didnt choose her for the way she dresses, as I looked over her wardrobe in her closet it was NOT impressive these are things Kelli that have absolutely no baring on why they choose who they choose as partners; those are small insignificant things. Your x paths wife’s wardrobe is elaborate because she has $$$$$ if you look nice in Charlette Rouse then WHO CARES if they arent 100 dollar tops, I have gotten more compliments on my cheaper clothes than I did on my expensive ones (when I could afford them) Clothes only give an imagine, they are not really and truly WHO you are.

    Its a traumatic experience to be duped for YEARS, to falsely be loved and have your higher emotions manipulated, exploited and played for sex,money, status, image, or whatever their reasons ; I am sure his wife fits somewhere in those reasons Kelli. Would it make you feel better to be used for image, money, status vs sex? I suppose it would make me feel morally better in that sense but in the end still so utterly betrayed and used. Just my thoughts this evening x0x0 Linda

  206. Linda, you are right to feel so utterly betrayed and used. But what you do with these negative feelings will determine the quality of your life. I just watched a show this weekend on Investigation Discovery (of course), about a woman (a math teacher) who was kidnapped and held captive with her young daughter in a closet by a psychopathic predator who used to be her student. He was obsessed with her, with getting power over her. She endured both physical and emotional trauma and during the trial he made a comment to her to the effect of: I hope you’ll be traumatized by this for the rest of your life. She told the journalist who interviewed her that she did her best NOT to feel hatred towards her abuser for the rest of her life and not to dwell on the pain he caused her and her family. In fact, she continued her missionary work and continued to love humanity. This is an extreme example because I think most of us would feel deeply traumatized and remain very resentful. But she brought up a great point, for any of us: feeling the hatred and resentment towards the psychopaths ultimately affects the quality of our lives, not theirs. That’s why I advise everyone to do their best to take that negative energy and to channel it, as best they can, towards some positive goals. Helping others on this or any website is a positive goal. Spreading information about psychopathy is one as well. Focusing more on those we love who love us, like family members and friends, is too. Not everything negative in life can be turned into something positive, but if we can do that with some horrible experiences, we should try. Claudia

  207. Kel, right now that you’re so busy with school, you don’t even have the time or energy for all these psychopaths! They drain you dry. I do think psychopaths have a sixth sense about when you’re vulnerable to them (and what your vulnerabilities are) as well as when you’re stronger (so they harass you more, to weaken you). They are social predators and have predatory instincts. But they also focus on people’s weaknesses and vulnerabilities, not only because they’re predatory but also because they’re so pathologically narcissistic. They constantly have to establish power over others, so they constantly focus on people’s weaknesses to make themselves feel in control and superior. Don’t let them get to you Kel. Just continue your path of recovery with the loving members of your family, your school (which is so important) and your professional and personal goals. Claudia

  208. Claudia, thanks, that is a list I read when I slip into cognitive disonance moments. My partner did all of the above in generous helpings. Michael

  209. “I do think psychopaths have a sixth sense about when you’re vulnerable to them (and what your vulnerabilities are) as well as when you’re stronger (so they harass you more, to weaken you).”

    Yes mine sure did!!

    Keli, you mentioned earllier your concern that your ex may be different with her and you’re assumptions are wrong. I thought the same thing both times my ex was seeing someone else. He and I were still together during one his liasons and I had the opportunity to read some of their email exchanges. (I guessed his password to his email). He was as cruel to her if not worse. He always told me I’m the only person he ever fights with, therefor it must be ME that likes all the drama. I am actual someone who likes peace and harmony. Let me tell you he made me work very, very, very, very, very hard for that.

    I then deluded myself into thinking he had changed for the next girl he was with. I stopped seeing him for about a year and a 1/2 . During that time I knew he was still with this other girl. I also still had his password. I occasionally would check his emails in hopes of finding something that would prove to me he was as awful to her as he was to me. However, I never did, which of course made me think even worse of myself and believe it was all my fault. However, he knew I had a password to his email because I told him and begged him to change it so I wouldn’t be tempted to keep looking for evidence he was as awful to her as he had been to me, his ex wife, and the other girl I knew about. He never changed his password and one day I decided to just shut his email account down. I was tired of the temptation to look. I was annoyed that he wouldn’t change his password and I was devasted every time I saw some loving exchange between them no “I’m sorry” emails which he would often give me.

    HOWEVER!! He did eventually contanct me after just over a year and eventually I agreed to see him. We started our relationship back up again and it turns out he was just as awful to her as he was to me, and all the others that came before me. So, I have no doubt your ex hasn’t changed a bit. People in general don’t change unless they’ve put work, time and thought into themselves. Psychopaths don’t change period. Its only a matter of time, if it hasn’t begun happening already before he’s devalueing her and getting his next victim lined up.

    I’m no longer seeing my ex and he is already moving on to the next. In fact he had moved on to her while we were still seeing each other. By now, almost 8 years on/off with this guy, I knew very well all the signs when he was interested, or pursuing someone else. I recognized it right away. Told him what I noticed and what I knew it meant and quit seeing him. He of course denied being involved with someone else. 2 weeks after I stopped seeing him, a very good friend of mine phoned me in a panic because her other very good friend and coworker was dating MY EX! She’s seen me crying and seen and heard about how he’s tortured me over the past 8 years. So, she is of course very worried and anxious about what this means for her other friend.

    I’m confident you are right in your assessment of your ex and nothing is different with his new relationship.

  210. Lisa, psychopaths lie and cheat with no problem, no remorse. They live for that. And they simultaneously juggle NUMEROUS partners, at different stages of the relationship–idealization, manipulation and devaluation–and return to recycle former partners too. I describe
    this process in my article, Relationship Boomerang. It’s not worth keeping up with all of your ex’s partners, since you’d be spending all your time keeping track of that looong list. You did your duty as a friend to inform your friend. Now you can focus on your own recovery. Claudia

  211. Lisa,

    Very encouraging post. Something I really needed to hear. And you’re right of course. I generally discourage snooping on the ex, but you’re damned lucky you had his email password! GREAT guess! lol! You got to see something that I never will, in that your ex treats all women the same. I often pray for a miracle in being able to catch even a GLIMPSE in that he treats this new one, the same way he treated me. I’ll never know. I also don’t bother to check. I know doing so would be seeing only pics or fakebook posts about how wonderful it all is. I took out all my IM’s, my fakebook, all my social networks are GONE. It’s kept me sane. I do understand why you did it and in doing so, you got proof. Now you can share it with people like me who will never see that in their ex’s and believe they go on to have some miraculous recovery with someone else. you’re right, it takes hard work to recover or to change. That is NO LIE! Thanks for your post. I’ll probably read it over and over! But from here on out, READ YOUR OWN POST HERE! And Claudia’s right, focus on your recovery. You got more truth about your ex than some of us do. They love it when we spin over them. Don’t let him make you spin anymore. Kel

  212. Kelli, You do know what he’s like with her. Because a yr ago, you WERE her.
    Like I said people don’t change, psychopaths certainly don’t. So if you are still doubting that he even one, you at least know WHAT he is like and HOW he is w/women. That hasn’t changed. I didn’t read you posted anything about how he’s gotten himself into intense therapy, taken some time to be on his own and figure himself out. Nope. I’m sure he’s the same man. Psycho, or not. She’s the new time filler. You maybe on the back burner for him who knows. She’ll be experiencing all that you experienced. No doubt.

    I just got this visual of the Stepford Wives! Think of it that way. You were the Stepford Wife that was cast into the recyle bin while the man tries out the new model. But, to HIM one Stepford Wife is just like another. They don’t feel, They don’t matter. They’re just there for his amusement and pleasure. I sort of visualize that’s how a psychopath sees us, as robots, feelings don’t matter, treating us well doesn’t matter. Using us for a specified purpose does. When that purpose is no longer there, neither is the old model. Cast it away. Try out another. “Rinse, repeat.” Like the Boomerange article stated.

    Claudia,

    Absolutely, I don’t think he’s worthy of taking up my minds mental space. I do still have flashes of moments that just randomly run through my head as my brain tries to categorize where to put it. In the “YEP! Proof! Bingo! psycho ass!” Or, “Wonder what the purpose of having said or done that was?” I don’t ruminate on them. But, they are still there. I am getting clearer and clearer everyday, in big part because I found this site! My doubts diminish and my certainty grows every day. I am enjoying learning about this….do you call it a disorder? Condition? Mental state? Whatever it’s called it’s intriguing with every new tid bit I learn. I am absolutely fascninated by how my experience mirrors so many I’m reading about. Some of the phrases are verbatim what my ex has/had said, or done. How I wish I knew all of this years ago. If only.

    btw: I commented on another thread and forgot to click the icon to have an email msg sent when it was responded to. I’m interested in seeing what your response(s) to my questions are. I think I am getting them answered as I’m reading these other threads. Just curious if there is a way to check on which threads I commented on? I forgot which topic it was under.

    Thank you for your speedy and insightful replies. Anyone who dates should be aware of what a sociopath or psychopath looks like. Wish there was a book called “Psychopaths Among Us!” which would be required reading for every high school senior, or man, woman who ever leaves his/her house. lol.

  213. Lisa,

    Actually, he WAS in therapy for quite awhile. Calling the therapist an “idiot” and such. It was mandatory that he be there. But he has since redeemed himself with his public image and new wife three. He can certainly put on the act. Even with therapy, it didn’t stop his cruelty to me, nor did it prevent him from finding a rich woman on a dating site and marrying her within five months of meeting her. Kel

  214. Oh Kel, I am so sorry for what you went through with him. I DO know what it’s like. Be glad you aren’t her I suppose because when he’s done with her she won’t be rich any longer.

    I think I mentioned earlier that my head feels like a ping pong ball. I have this thought, then that thought, then back to this thought, then back to that thought and on it goes. Overall though, when I start missing him and thinking “she” must have all these qualities that I don’t have. I don’t blame him for wanting her. She IS better than me. I’m sure he is working doubling hard to keep her. She gets all the romance and care I never got from him. When my mind tries to go there I just stop and tell myself that he’s the unfortunate one for being unable to experience the incredible human being that I am. He’ll never have the kind of relationship I’ll have with my future partner. Because he doesn’t know how to access, and (now I know) is unable to access those deeper emotions I have. WE are the lucky ones. We’re the ones who in the long run have a MUCH MUCH better off existance and future than our ex’s, or their unsuspecting new challenge(s). I also remind myself that this state I’m in is a temporary set back and a blip in my entire lifetime. I’ll move on and feel love and joy again. He on the other hand will remain in his misery a lot longer than I in mine.

    It is an ongoing renewel of thinking. It does get easier for me. I have my moments. I just let myself have them, have a good cry then go take out the trash. ;) I hope your “moments” of longing and nostalgia become fewer and fewer as your life becomes fuller and fuller until there is no more space for thoughts of……who again???? Forgot who I was referring to. :)

    One last thing. When we were apart that time for nearly 2 years. I remember like each 6 months I would come to a new state of clarity about who he truly was. I recall being in my house one evening, alone, music on, candles lit, glass of wine just drinking in the peace and bliss and thinking to myself that it was the first time in many years I was able to have such a peaceful moment. For w/my physco peace became an unknown entity. I also remember spending time w/friends and laughing out loud w/full joy. And reflecting…wow all the years I’ve been w/”dumbass” (that became my nickname for him and it did make me feel powerful over my memories of him when I used it! lol) I stopped laughing. Crying, misery, anger, frustration, anguish, exhaustion, depletion, emptiness, feeling like I was dying, literally and emotionally became my “normal.” W/out dumbass I was becoming human again

    Just before he began contacting me again, any thoughts of nostalgia, affection, or love I had of him had completely dissipated. I recall telling a gf that I was now able to see what a dumbass my ex dumbass really was. I finally had full clarity that he was just a mean, sadistic dumbass!

    You know how it is when you are in the relationship, you know the things he is doing are unkind, you know it’s intentional, (at least I did after so many years w/him). But, there is a really big part of the brain that doesn’t acknowledge it. We stay in denial. But w/enough time and distance you’ll see him for what he truly is. A complete and udder pathetic dumbass.

    Phew…(big EXHALE) I feel a bit better. How about you?

    Postscript: Of course, I then made the mistake of thinking I was strong enough and healed enough to have contact with him. See the kids, catch up and move on.So, I responded to his email. And here we go again! Other than being thankful to have had contact w/the kids again. Get to hug them, tell them I missed them and get to know them again, it was a huge mistake. No contact are two words to live by.

    Hope some of that helps Kel. :)

    Lisa

  215. Lisa,

    I understand so much of what you’re describing. You went two years without contact and he emailed you? Wow. I hope that doesn’t happen with me, and I think as long as my ex dumbass has access to his new wife’s finances, he’ll leave me alone. Or at least I was thinking so, with the exception of these phone calls I keep getting with unavailable on the caller ID. They set me back some, but not as much or for as long as they use too. I’m almost a year out now and I’m still in and out of cog/dis. This week has been particularly bad. I do know what you mean about peace though. I’ve had a few evenings as you’ve described, but I cut the wine out of my life because it was linked to him. I became an alcoholic while I was with him and before him, I rarely, if ever, touched alcohol. He, however, I’m sure still is and he was trying to suck someone in who also would drink with him…..so when I saw his wife at the grocery story buying expensive steaks for dinner, in her basket was a nice BIG bottle of wine. It’s interesting cuz I didn’t start out drinking that much, it developed over time and since we’ve been apart, and I’ve not been drinking, I see that when I started drinking WITH him, he was calling ME an alcoholic. It’s only recently I realized that that’s just how he wanted me to be. It was another way to destroy me. I associate alcohol with him now, so I stay clear of it.

    I hope I DO become more clear, the further away I get. I was in the relationshit for ten years. Your posts give me hope for two reasons, One: You got proof that they don’t change, even with someone else and two: life does continue to improve, even with aftermath symptoms, without them. You’re right Lisa, it’s a blip on the radar screen. So glad you’re here with us! That’s what we do, I hope, is help one another :) Kel

  216. Kel, he was trying to get you to become an alcoholic, so that you’d be in his power and he’d have one more thing he can add to the smear campaign of you. Interesting that he’s starting to launch the same artillery against his new wife… Like they say, a tiger doesn’t change his spots. Claudia

  217. Claudia,

    It’s very insidious. It starts out very slowly. It wasn’t till mid relationshit that I realized I had an alcohol problem and a big one to deal with.

    It was done on purpose, as you say, to control. Lots one can do when your “inhibitions” are lowered. I couldn’t imagine him being with someone who wasn’t a drinker, as obsessed about wine as he was. Kel

  218. Kel, all these psychopaths have an M.O., a technique they use on pretty much all victims to assume control. It usually involves the gradual degradation of boundaries, and also with that of dignity. That can be via inculcating, gradually, one drop at a time, alcoholism, drugs, or sex addiction. Each psychopath has a preferred technique for luring and controlling his targets that he hones on a lot of practice with many victims. Claudia

  219. Thanks Kel, your response made me cry. For two reasons, well maybe 3. :) I’m having a particularly rough Sunday morning. My emotions confuse me so much right now!!!!

    Like I said we were previously apart, appx 15 months. We had some brief email exchanges during that time. But, for the most part we were completely apart. I don’t remember the time frame between any contact at all 6 months, maybe 9?
    I had just, I mean JUST gotten to the point where I was feeling 100% free of him. I still couldn’t see his Facebook status of “in a relationship.” For some reason those 3 little words would devestate me more than anything else. However,I had gotten to the point where I wasn’t at all tempted to even check. I surely had gotten to the point of having any and all hope of ever hearing from him again erased. It is so bizaare how they have this sense of when the perfect time to make their move is. It had only been a few weeks that I had released every ounce of “hope” that he’d come back professing his undying love and desire to do anything to make me happy. Of course that’s when BAMB, there’s the email.
    I had changed my phone number so he couldn’t contact me that way.I’d blocked him from FB. I’d moved my residence. He had no real way of getting in touch with me.Unfortuntely, we work for the same school district which means I have no way of blocking him from my work email account. Of course, that is where he sent the email, just a couple weeks before the end of the school year. I ignored it for a while, a week maybe 10 days. But then I ran into he and his daughter at a local restaurant. I refused to even look at him, but his daughter who I had become very close to, came running over to me and hugged me and wanted to spend some time with me. So, we talked for a while (the daughter and I). That was all it took. The next week at work, I responded to his email. Knowing full well what a colosal mistake it would be.

    The confusion for me is, I did all that work for nearly 2 years. I had 100% let him go. I’d healed. Now, he’s been back for 5 months and I feel like I’m back at square one. Some days I’m okay. (Well parts of most days). Then, out of nowhere, I’m crying, sad, lonely, missing him, feeling like I’m going to die w/out him. Crazy since I was dying with him! I feel like I’m the Dr. Jekyl Mr Hyde now. One minute together, composed, free. The next I’m sobbing and ruminating on stupid things. One minute I’m sobbing for myself and fear of being w/out him. Another minute I”m sobbing because I can’t believe all I allowed him to do to me and I’m sad for “that girl” of the past who experienced all the suffering and abuse. I see her(my former self) as another person from who I am now. But, I weep for her and what she experienced. Another minute I may be crying because I’m mourning the loss of Dumbass the illusion. The mirage of a man I was in a relationship with. Then I may be shedding tears for the lost empty soul who lives inside that mirage man.

    A theme here, crying. lol. Now back to how this applies to your response. Well, it made me cry because I feel sorrow for your suffering and every other victim whose been thrown into that pit of misery by a psychopath! I’m also sad at the regression that I myself have made. But, the good news is, I had tears of joy because you reminded me of my strength! I am having a rough morning. You reminded me how I get myself out of that. Thank you! You also gave me a smile when you referenced Dumbass. I felt instantly impowered and am not yearning for Dumbass any longer. Good riddance.Good Day sir! :)

    Is it possible for you to change your number so there is no chance he’ll phone you? I know how jarring those scares, or glimpses of contact can be. I imagine it feels to us the same way a returning soldier jumps when he/she hears a car backfire. Your body & mind react as if it’s a danger signal. Well, I suppose because it is! Psychopaths are like soldiers and we’re the enemy they’re out to conquer. Be alert. Be vigilant.Change your number ;)

  220. Kel, Yes, it IS insidious. That’s the same word I often use. They do start off so slowly and incrementally, bit by bit, breaking us down and molding us into the perfect victim. Pathetic little dumbasses that they are. They need us weak because they are such weak little dumbasses themselves. Boy, I feel so much better!! LOL

  221. LIsa,

    I’ve changed my number THREE times and he still manages to get it. I’m sure through means that he is not allowed access to at work. I’m still a client of the entity that he serves. getting my number is a piece of cake. I decided not to change it again and learn to just deal with it. I have given a new number out so many times and those I deal with, fam, friends and my medical clinic, school, etc, get irritated with all the changes. I think it’s also a bit of stubborness on my part too. Why should I HAVE to do anything anymore with regards to him and I don’t CARE what it is. He’s got a new target, done. No reason to deal with me anymore. I figure he’ll eventually just go away. I want to be able to learn how to handle it. There will be times in the future I may run into him as he works about three minutes away and lives ten out. We shop at the same stores, etc. I’m lucky, really. He wants to irritate me, not talk to me, lol! So that’s good.

    I understand exactly how you feel about dumbass. I’ve called mine the same thing. Actually my daughter calls him ass face. I laugh when she says it. I think on and off cog/dis is to be expected. I look at it this way, if I really had a chance to go back, would I go back? Um, no. I’ve done way too much work to get beyond this. But I have no doubt that if I heard his voice, I would totally go off. But it doesn’t stop the occasional missing. I was having a hard time to this morning, but then something mean he said or did would counteract the missing part. I get more visuals of how evil and destructive he was, rather than anything good anymore and I think about the strides I’ve made in the last year. That’s helpful too. I figure it will eventually stop, all of this. The hardest thing to do is having patience, because with the pain that it is, I want to sometimes rip my heart out and not feel at all. It’s tiring to heal from. Thinking about that too, also keeps me motivated with my NC. I know that if I were to break it or he were to contact me, I’d be in absolute fear because I know any reason he would have for contact, would be to HURT or HARM me in some way. I totally get that now. Have you reached that point yet, lisa? I’m a little confused by your story above. How long have you been away from him, NC again? Kel

  222. Hi Kel, this time we’ve only been apart a couple weeks. Total time together 8 yrs. Multiple makeups/breakups in that time. The longest was that 1yr 1/2 I mentioned. We got back together for 5 months following that longer break. Now after 5 months back, we have been apart 2 weeks.

    Well, I hadn’t thought about it in terms of realizing the only reason to contact me is to hurt me. DUH! No I hadn’t. I had thought about it in terms of, he has a purpose, a use for me not that he cares. But, I hadn’t put it into the perspective of the sole reason is to hurt me.

    This is all very new to me. I only discovered, or learned anything about sociopaths/psychopaths a few weeks ago. I knew he was mean, but always thought it was because he had been hurt growing up and he was in pain himself. I was going to love him through that pain! Oh BROTHER!! And help him heal. dun da da dun ….Superwoman on a mission to heal the broken. lol. I’m wrapping my head around all I”m learning and discovering something new every day. That concept is something new. I’ll file that away for sure!

    I’d been in counseling for several years on/off to try to make sense of this relationship and why I continued to be in it. After this last “Dumbass did it again!” Promises not to hurt me, emphatically, sincerely never ever to do that again. Well, of course he did. When I was telling my counselor this he mentioned Dumbass may be a sociopath because he seems to hurt me over and over and over and it doesn’t ever hurt him when he hurts me. I’m like “huh?” Why didn’t I see that! So, I went home and began researching sociopaths and suddenly all the lights were on and the elevator went to the top floor! That’s how I came across this site. Everyday I read something, or learn something new and am just amazed how it fits my relationship and dumbass’s behavior. Now, you’ve given me a new piece of information. Thank you!

  223. Lisa,

    This was a glaring obviousness in my relationshit with my dumbass. I would ask him NOT to do something that hurt me deeply and he’d do it WORSE the next time or in a different way…….then act as if it never happened or DENY that he did it…………..it was mindfucking 101. I could NOT understand why he continued to hurt me over and over and seemed to enjoy it. Now I see MANY, MANY things, having been out for almost a year now that I did not see before. EVERYTHING was meant to hurt and there were other times that I was purposely set up by him for exploitation. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, he just didn’t CARE. This is also a glaring red flag. The lack of empathy and lack of remorse is evident in the ability to harm you emotionally, psychologically and continue to do it or up the ante on it. I also got the silent treatment when i was not responding to him in ways he wanted me too. often I would say something completely innocuous and he would respond to it with a silent treatment having me desperate to find out just what the hell I said or did that pissed him off (oftentimes, I’d never know, or find out days later, or he’d come back after a few days of “punishment” and act as if nothing ever happened), and in short, this was about control. The idea is to keep you completely off balance at all times so you are NEVER in a place of equality with one another. ever. If you believe you are or start to believe you are, the psychopath will saw you off at the knees. You won’t know what just hit you or understand it or his motives, ever. Generally speaking, there ARE no real motives. He does it for fun. To harm, on purpose with the intent to elevate himself to a new superior plane.

    It IS very difficult to wrap your mind around something so evil. But that’s just what it is. When someone is hurting you on purpose, you can be certain that you are dealing with a personality disorder and that they KNOW exactly what they’re doing and that they enjoy doing it. Kel

  224. Hi Kel, Oh that was my relationship exactly. They are all one in the same it seems. The one thing he knew hurt me the most, was the one thing he would be sure to do even more and more intently. Then yes, fain not knowing he was doing it, or denying it, or telling me I’m imagining things, being too sensitive, projecting issues w/my dad onto him…anything he could think of to delfect his responsiblity or what he had done/said. It was apparent his entire existance was for nothing more than to figure out ways to mind fuck me as well. My family and friends noticed it before I did.

    Anyhow, it is so illuminating reading yours and everyone elses stories how similar everything is! I think I’m sure I understand and I clearly know I didn’t imagine any of it, or bring it on myself or it wasn’t that I was difficult for him to be with. I would do everything I knew he wanted and then he would change what he wanted. Soon as I figured that out he’d change it again.

    I would have to take xanax just to get through the evenings with him sometimes. I eventually learned how to remain as calm and rational as possible w/out the xanax. But, that was my first red flag to myself, that in order to survive the evening I needed a sedative.

    As you likely know my calm only drove him to be more cruel because if I wasn’t suffering he wasn’t satisfied. Well, each time I read yours or someone else experience here, my understanding of HIS responsibility deepens and releasing my self blame becomes easier.For that I am so grateful!

    I just hadn’t yet made the connection that everytime he came back to me the ONLY intent was to hurt me. For example, this last time I thought he came back to me because he missed me, but also because he didn’t want to be alone for the summer.(He and the gf broke up of course) Being alone is like being in hell for him. I realized early on he was using me to avoid being alone. I thought he just couldn’t help himself from hurting me because he was an emotional cripple. But you are right. HIS only intent in contacting me and coming back to me was for the purpose of pain…I’m, going to process that. I see it as he had a use for me, to avoid being alone, and of course he wanted sex. Hurting me is just the icing on the cake for him. But, perhaps you are right. Perhaps hurting me was the goal and sex and companionship were the icings.

    The interesting thing is, I didn’t want him back in my life this time. I will admit, I missed the sex with him. Because that was about the only thing that 1/2 way worked well for us. But I was very happy w/out him. I didn’t realize I would still have such a hard time telling him “no” to something. It’s like brainwashing. What dumbass wants, dumbass gets. He kept telling me he was unhappy and suicidal. So, of course I had EMPATHY for him and made myself available to be his shoulder to cry on. That was his ticket back in. Dumbass!

    I was however stronger this time. I didn’t let him get his way all the time. I kept, or tried to keep some semblence of an independent life and keep some boundries. This angered him, as you might suspect. He would tell me I had changed, he didn’t like the new me, he missed the “sweet lisa.” I’d just throw it back and say the same thing to him when he was being a dumbass. “Gee you’ve changed, I miss the nice Dumbass. Is he on vacation? Will he be back anytime soon, I like him much better than this new dumbass.” :)
    This did shut him up for a SHORT time.Believe it or not I figured out ways to avoid arguments, or letting him think I gave a damn about anything so nothing could hurt me. When he would begin playing his games. I would simply leave. I made sure to meet him everywhere so I always had my own car and means to get away. I’d simply tell him “I’m not enjoying myself. Gotta go. Bye.” When he would insist on trying to make a moutain out of a bread crumb. I remained very calm, and mirrored everything he said. Calmly told him. Uh hun. I understand. I accept that that is your truth and I can appreciate your thoughts and feelings. My thoughts are different and that’s ok. I comlpletely respect your thinking I’m a raging bitch. You can choose to accept that about me and finish your dinner. Or, you can go home. I’m fine either way. I’m a little bit hungry, so I’ll be at the table eating when you decide what you’d like to do, come join me, or go home. Whatever you’re comfortable doing.It’s all good. (with a genuine smile)”

    But, that was a cruel game I played on myself.This only kept him “normal” for a short period of time until he had enough ammo collected to hurl at me. He then became an even bigger monster than I imagined he was capable of. Never kid a kidder or control a psycho. You’ll loose in the end.

  225. Lisa,

    I can tell you are still reeling and hurting from the relationship. Its hard at first because its so easy to go back in your mind and piece it all together and put all the chaos in its proper context.

    I am the last person to be saying this, but I think you will be in a good place soon as long as you are able to admit that it was a bad relationship and do your best to put it all behind you. You went through hell, but now you know why and that you need it out of your life. Don’t let yourself be a victim. Keep away from him as best you can and hopefully he will find someone else to mess with.

    Be strong and know that he can not control how you feel about yourself any more.

  226. Lisa, I agree with you. In fact, that’s one of the last statements made by Martha Stout in “The sociopath next door.” She cautions victims NOT to engage in rhetorical or any other kind of games with psychopaths. For normal people life and love aren’t games. For psychopaths that’s all everything in life is: a strategy game of manipulation and deceit whose sole objective is gaining control over others and making their adversaries lose. It’s not even “winning” per se, since most psychopaths are Losers by any normal standards of personal and professional success. Engaging in any way with a psychopath and his evil games constitutes a way of losing one’s self in their quagmire. It’s not worth it. Claudia

  227. [...] Escape from Psychopathic Seduction,  is now also available online, for more information, click  Here GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); [...]

  228. Thank you very much for mentioning my new book on psychopathy, Dangerous liaisons! I also love your blog; it’s very well-written and informative. Just one small correction: Dangerous Liaisons is not available online, but on amazon.com and other online bookstores. I’m pasting the amazon link below. Claudia


Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

Comments RSS

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 1,064 other followers