Social Predators: With Friends Like These Who Needs Enemies?

Sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction. Consider the following true story, which sounds so fantastic that it could have been lifted off the pages of an Agatha Christie mystery. One October evening 1998, a despondent Englishman named John Allan rushes into the hotel lobby of the New Winter Palace Hotel in Luxor, Egypt. He appears to be very distressed. He announces in a panic-stricken voice that his wife is dying in their hotel room. Pamela Black, a guest who happens to be trained in administering first aid, goes with him to try to help his wife. She finds Cheryl Lewis sprawled out naked on the bed. A ring of sweat surrounds her limp body. She’s also frothing at the mouth. Unwilling to risk her own life for a stranger, Black tells Allan that she’ll instruct him on how to give his dying wife mouth-to-mouth. Strangely, the man refuses to help. He paces back and forth by the foot of the bed while his partner is dying. To make matters worse, the doctor called to the scene also refuses to aid the sick woman, claiming that she’s a foreigner. The hospital staff can’t save her either. Cheryl Lewis, a seemingly healthy woman, expires at the age of 43.

The Egyptian doctors declared in their report that Cheryl Lewis died of natural causes. But in England detectives decided to investigate the matter further. John Allan’s bizarre behavior aroused their suspicion. Only days after his partner’s death, he kept company with prostitutes. Weeks later, he courted Jennifer Hughes, one of Cheryl’s close friends. He flattered her, cooked for her, pampered her and made her feel special, just as he had his previous girlfriend. Like Cheryl, she too believed that she had finally found her soulmate. However, when Jennifer refused to move in with him in a church where, eerily enough, his previous lover was supposed to be buried, Allan turned on her. That day Jennifer ended up sick. She was hospitalized for severe nausea and stomach cramps. The cause of her illness turned out to be cyanide poisoning. Police discovered large doses of cyanide in Cheryl’s car. During the trial it came to light that Allan had used cyanide to kill off his butterfly collection. Detective Superintendent Dave Smith, who investigated Cheryl Lewis’s homicide, concluded that John Allan had poisoned his girlfriends. Yet both women had been very enamored with him, considered him to be their life partner and trusted him fully. “He opens car doors for them, has their drinks when they come home, cooks their meals and just pampers them,” Detective Smith explained Allan’s magnetic pull on women.

Those who had not fallen victim to Allan’s seduction skills, however, saw another, more menacing, side of him. Close friends of Cheryl have described him as a “first-rate parasite” and “pure evil.” Eric Lewis, Cheryl’s father, stated in an interview following John Allan’s conviction for the murder of his daughter that Allan was “a confessed liar, a confessed forger. He’s extremely devious. He’s a skillful manipulator and a very, very dangerous man.” Lewis admitted that he never liked Allan. He didn’t see what his daughter, who was wealthy, successful and attractive, ever saw in him. Yet before the misfortunate turn of events, even he couldn’t predict just how dangerous John Allan would be.

On the surface, Allan’s motive for killing Cheryl Lewis, his companion of seven years, appeared to be money. Police discovered that he had forged part of her will, declaring himself as the main beneficiary of her $690,000 estate. But this motive doesn’t even begin to explain the sordid mind games he played with women. It doesn’t quite capture the lies he told his girlfriend when he claimed to be involved in illegal arms deals in the Middle East and pursued by terrorists. It doesn’t fully explain why he tried to extort money from Cheryl for a topaz ring her mother had given her, demanding more than $3000 for its return. Later, his DNA was found on the stamp placed on the anonymous letter sent by the blackmailer. It also doesn’t explain why he attempted to shoot his previous wife, Sima, the mother of his three children. And it doesn’t explain why he asked his newest girlfriend to live in the church where Cheryl’s body was supposed to be buried. In other words, no rational explanation or comprehensible motive can even begin to explain this dangerous seducer’s severe personality disorder–psychopathy–which led him to pathological lying, malicious manipulation, sexual perversion, theft, blackmail and eventually the cold-blooded murder of the woman he called the love of his life.

Not all sociopaths kill, of course. Few do. But they all hide their evil designs, mask their exploitative nature and withhold their real malicious motives from us. That is how they lure us; that is how they use us; that is how they also aim to destroy us, if not physically, then at the very least emotionally. The luring phase is perhaps the most sadistic of all because it is their best effort at disguise. The more they act like  they love and desire us; the more effort they put into deceiving and seducing us, the lower we will sink  when the fraudulent relationship inevitably falls apart.

I’ll offer an analogy to illustrate the underlying cruelty of psychopathic behavior.  Imagine the following scenario: a boy who gets a puppy for Christmas. He pets him, feeds him, cuddles him, plays with him and even sleeps next to him at night. Then, six months later, after the puppy has bonded most with him and expects only nurture and affection from him, the boy takes a knife and slaughters him just for fun. That’s exactly what a psychopath does, at the very least on a psychological level, to every person who becomes intimately involved with him. He carefully nurtures expectations of mutual honesty and love. Then he sticks a knife into her back through a pattern of intentional deception and abuse.

Let me now offer a second, more poignant, example. I remember many years ago being horrified when I read in the news about the rapes of Bosnian women by ethnically Serbian men. What troubled me most was a true story about a Serbian soldier who “saved” a Bosnian girl from gang rape by fellow Serbs. He removed her from the dangerous situation, fed her, protected her and talked to her reassuringly and tenderly for several days. Once he secured her trust, gratitude and devotion, he raped and killed her himself. Afterwards, he boasted about his exploits on the international news. This degree of psychological sadism exceeds that of the brutes who raped and killed women without initially faking niceness and caring. What he did to her was even more insidious, duplicitous and perverse. This backstabbing of trusting and loving victims makes psychopaths so calculated, dangerous and predatory. Evil is the word that comes to mind to best describe them and their diabolical actions. If you’ve been involved with a with a psychopath,  you have to wonder: with friends like these who needs enemies?

Claudia Moscovici, psychopathyawareness

Dangerous Liaisons: How to Identify and Escape from Psychopathic Seduction


  1. Claudia,

    This is an EXCELLENT article. I appreciate the emphasis on how dangerous the luring phase is. That is so so so important! But you also give great examples to trauma bonds and stockholm syndrome. Nice job! Kelli

  2. Kelli, thank you. Although I feel very strongly about this point, I really appreciated the debate Michael’s slightly different point of view stirred that many of us engaged in. I’m far from being a relativist on the subject of psychopathy, however, the expression of different points of view and experiences keeps our ideas from stagnating and helps us articulate our arguments better. Claudia

  3. Claudia
    I agree with Keli another great article on how incredibly dangerous these people can be, especially in their luring phase.
    What I find interesting also, in the case you discuss, is the people that did NOT fall foul to his charms and what they would say about him and more importantly WHY. What did they see of him and what did he give away that made them recoil in horror? Because they did not do what he wanted did he lose his mask really quickly and the vitriolic rage come out very quickly?
    Why I say this, is again, purely personally related. My ex mentioned a woman once that was rich, recently divorced. All he said was that he had asked her out on a date once, she had acted weird and “gotten the wrong end of the stick” as he was “only looking for friendship” – he said that they ended up having an email argument and that was the end of their “friendship”. I think this woman, like the people in the above article that did not fall foul to his charms, saw in pure Technicolour the evilness and wanted nothing further to do with it. With hindsight, I know i should of, as there many red flags of my ex’s evil self, and if i’d listened to my inner voice I may not be on this blog today (i’m glad i found you though!).

  4. All: They were never your friend or anything else from DAY ONE. I believe they lure us under the disguise they design for two reasons: 1- to secure the catch 2- then to obtain a sick type of amusement and power it gives them to watch us struggle from all their psychological mind games that follow. We start to ask questions and boy they have ALL the answers dont they? They are PREPARED!!! They are prepared because they know their game and what follows when they throw the mask away. If anything I can honestly say; I had a rapist that was quite charming, he was so damn charming this rapist had ME begging to be with him!!! – try wrapping your head around that concept. In the two examples you gave Claudia the little boy who loved then slaughtered the puppy seemed like it was a random act but for the man who rescued the woman from a gang rape situation – he was making her FEEL as if she was being rescued and saved it was calculated and evil – our paths wanted more than anything to make sure we felt we were being loved and cherished and we were so special in his eyes – but what follows is – I cant wait to watch you fall, and not understand what the hell I just did to you, you were never special (in my eyes) but I am so powerful and special because I was able to make you believe you were, I can make just about anyone believe something to get what I want, I play everyone.

    What is that I have heard? Always keep your enemies close to you so you know what they are up to? That does not work with a path because your enemy comes in the form of many disguises and we never knew they were our enemy until it was too late. Nice article Claudia Linda

  5. Claudia: I just posted something for you under the PTSD article


  6. “I cant wait to watch you fall, and not understand what the hell I just did to you, you were never special (in my eyes) but I am so powerful and special because I was able to make you believe you were, I can make just about anyone believe something to get what I want, I play everyone. ” – that is exactly right Linda. that is how I felt my ex path thought about what he did to me and others. calculated all the way.
    I know – totally agree that they are never friends…hence why I put quote marks round the word…they just have “aquaintances” they keep at arms length

  7. Out of Sandra Brown’s book, “Women Who Love Psychopaths” and his communication intentions during the idealization phase: “communication MOTIVATION , according to a psychopath, of often to say nothing and dodge real disclosure. Rieber and Vetter noted that “words become detached from meaning and serve instead as a means of placating an unwary victim. Nowhere else in her professional or personal life could this happen. Only out of the mouth of a salesman-psychopath, could new definitions of truth, words, and language ever be believed. She would come later to understand that the entire INTENTION of his communication was to project onto a screen the most fine tuned of lies, deceptions, and deceit, and see if he could make her believe it”. Kelli

  8. Lesley and Linda, very apt characterization of the exploitative mindset of psychopaths! Claudia

  9. Lesley, I’m really sorry that you got burned by a psychopath like the rest of us, but very glad you found us here. Thanks so much, as always, for your input. Claudia

  10. Kelli, thanks so much! It took me the “writing cure” therapy to see the red flags and discover many of the lies of the year-long luring phase. Because psychopaths can be quite good at winging it and acting in love. Claudia

  11. TO ALL: Everyone is so helpful and nobody judges and Gods knows the wrong choices I have made in this experience; but as long as I can recognize that and understand WHY I made those wrong choices it can only further my recover as well as yours.

    Thank you for helping me, each and everyone. These past few days I have felt like I was going “Insane” and isnt that strange how they wear a mask to appear to be sane and we wear no mask and are left feeling insane? Some days I feel like I am wearing a mask to hide from the world what I have encountered but I dont hide behind the mask for the same reasons the paths do, I use it to hide my pain.


    ps was it you Julian who lost your cat? I hope I got that right and not confused “pussies” as my x path sometimes did, ha ha thats another story but some things are just left better not said. I am also a cat owner seems I have the capacity to love this cat like nothing else right now, her name is Eleanore. I hope you will venture when you are ready to get a kitty x0

  12. Claudia; I think it is very common for a psychopath, once they have grown bored with us and wish to embark on a trolling exercise and spice their lives up with a new victim; will give us the “let’s be friends” routine. In the psychopathic modus operendi of conducting a cost benefit analysis; they are always thinking- I might need you for something someday.

  13. Linda,

    I’ve been thinking so much about you today since you posted on the last thread.

    I so understand how you feel and get your pain. It’s really provoked some triggers for me, I’m not blaming you for that at all and I hope you don’t misunderstand.

    I think what I’m relating to, is not necessarily the sexual deviancy your spath to mine, but being the OW and wondering what life would be like living with them and why you were not chosen. On top of that, there is guilt and shame for the participation as the OW, while buying into the psychopaths lies. The wife or main GF is the “virtuous” ones in these types of situations because she was married or living with the psychopath, so she doesn’t have the double whammy that we have to carry., Admittedly, I cried yesterday and today, much, because it brings forth the reality that mine didn’t choose me either. I’ll never get to know what it must be like to be love bombed and made to feel that you were somehow special enough to be chosen. I don’t mean this to sound like somehow we would be “winning” against a wife or a main GF, but the psychopaths lies and his main carrot dangle is this promise of a life together that he has no intention of fulfilling. We loved him. Or at least, I can say, I deeply loved my spath. Very much. I did things that I would NEVER do (and wont’ do again) to be with him and bought into thousands of lies and masks. One of the most heartbreaking things for me now, is his smear campaign at work against me, losing me a close friend who also works with him, but that he has reworked his image in redeeming himself there. If they don’t pity me (and I don’t mean in a good way either), they think I’m crazy or that it was my fault he strayed, but now he’s found a better woman and he appears high and giddy everyday at work with this new wife. I cared for the people that worked there. They ALL know me and when the hearing happened after he got fired, to get his job back, he used me to exploit, to do it. It was at that time that everyone in the office knew all the details. What really sucks so much is that I’m still a client there. I wish I could cut all ties right now and if I could, I most certainly would. It is humiliating that they have accepted his “past deviancy” as a happenstance mistake, while I’m painted out to be the whore. He is now the hero. They have even increased his client base to the most VULNERABLE of individuals within this entity. It’s sickening and sad to me. And because I was the OW, I was not to believed. He was mandated into therapy and you can bet he’s used that to the hilt for his “reform”. I hope someday soon, i can move away from all of this bullshit. It is a great impediment to my healing. Add to all of that, the guilt and shame that I feel daily, like I have a shame sign on my ass wherever I go in this town and he’s “redeemed”. I’m responsible for his ex wife and children’s pain. For the break up of his marriage, shoot, even for his bout with pancreatitis… for all the times he said he loved me…that he wanted me to “move in”….while he was dating several women at the time that I didn’t know about, it is so very painful to have such a dichotomy emotionally. An ex friend labeled me a poison container for him. She was right. That’s exactly what I was. Every single bit of vitriol he had in him, was poured into me. My self esteem is still very low. I think about him and his new wife and the giddiness and reformed self he is displaying at work. He got away with it. All of it, and even when he was on the verge of not getting away with it, he exploited me further to do so. No guilt, no shame, no remorse. I’m “The biggest mistake in his life”. And I carry that pain around every second of every single day, wondering if he has changed, maybe his reform is real, maybe it WAS just me. I got really upset with my therapist last session when she implied that we “just weren’t right for each other”. I’m going to talk to her about this, because it has had a profound effect on me negatively. She also said, “Well maybe they are happy, but who cares, it’s not your problem anymore”. Really? We need to set that straight because it conveys the message that I should move on right now and that’s none of my business when for ten years, he made it my business.

    Linda, there was a time, about three years in, to where he took a vacation with his wife. He called this “maintenance” and he used it against me emotionally. I would ask him to tell me ahead of time. He never did. It was always the day of or the day before, well this one time, he didn’t tell me until an hour before he was to leave for the airport, knowing i could not contact him to talk about it. These cruelties were a constant with him. I didn’t bother trying to call on his cell when I normally would or cry when he was standing in front of me telling me…of course this completely freaked him out. So when he got back, at work the next day, he wrote me an email, apologizing, yet blaming his lack of disclosure about this vacation on the fact that other men were in my life but as JUST FRIENDS. It was so obvious what he was doing. I sat there STARING at that email. It was truly a turning point for me, or could have been. But I wound up giving in. I think it was the “I really do love you, babe” crap that did it to me. Looking back now, the intermittent reinforcement was set up from the beginning. And it works like a charm. His current wife will stay with him, probably the rest of her ilfe. He will do the same intermittent reinforcement, but will keep the mask on for a long, long time. He can’t afford to screw up this image he has rebuilt for himself.

    And so the pain continues. Why wasn’t I good enough? I don’t know. Why didn’t he want to marry me? Well, I didn’t have the cash and apparently, i was boring in bed (at the end I refused to do what he wanted me to do, as I felt objectified). But I was good enough to be his poison container. I can’t tell you that pain I feel because of that now. The traumas connected to him are insurmountable, Linda. The slime of whore that he left behind, wasn’t just upon my soul, but is also now the slime he leaves in the smear campaign. People are going to believe what they are going to believe. He will not treat her as he treated me. Not with all that money and all that sex. There is no way. He lived for money. Now he has it. Investing his heart out, while claiming she’s the best thing since french toast. It is very very painful. Very. And it feels so in your face, I so know that. I truly, truly feel for you and so understand your pain. Kelli

  14. Claudia,

    Yea, they can be. Kelli

  15. Micheal,

    I believe that is completely true, unless the psychopath knows you’re onto him/her, then it’s not worth keeping you in the circle of recyclables. Kelli

  16. Kelli, unfortunately there are some psychopaths, like my ex, who cyberstalk you for years even though they’re sure you don’t want anything to do with them: those do it just to harass you and play malicious games (a recurrent theme…). Claudia

  17. Michael, your points about how some moments during the idealization phase seemed so real and genuine reminds me of the song I used to listen to during my writing cure, when I was learning to let go, one by one–pice by piece–of each positive memory with the psychopath. It’s a painful process, but this lovely song by Katie Melua, Piece by Piece, captures it quite poetically. Claudia

  18. Kelli I think that is true. Once they get that you have caught on to them they move you down the recyclables list. You find yourself in the bottom draw of potential Narcissistic supply. Michael

  19. Claudia,

    Your ex was so extreme, that’s not at all surprising. While I think that most just move onto other targets. Kelli

  20. Claudia,

    She has a lovely voice and it’s a beautiful video. Kelli

  21. Kelli,

    Everything they do is for maximum hurt to the victim (eventually) or maximum gain to them.

    He did what he thought would hurt you the most and he is still doing it.

    He married her because that would give him the most money. And her fall, though it doesn’t seem possible to you, is going to be even more horrific than your fall.And fall she will….because he is a psychopath.

    The p I was involved with has been married to the heiress for about 38 years. But (if I can believe anything he said) she is very depressed and cries all the time. I would suspect that is true. But she has a second home on the other side of the country, a third one in the mountains, and a grandchild across the Atlantic, so she really doesn’t have to spend time with him too often.

    Am I envious? Hell no. I’d rather live in a tent year round than be exposed to his poison even just on holidays. ABSOLUTELY!

    Sounds like you need a new therapist. She is NOT getting it if she says maybe you just weren’t right for each other. Yeah…just like a lot of women and Ted Bundy just weren’t right for each other either.

    I sure wish there was someway you could move or stop being a client. But barring that,stand straight and tall, don’t seek anyone’s approval, dress and walk with confidence. A strong core is essential in physical fitness, and a strong inner core is essential for emotional fitness. The past is just the path you took to get to where you are today (some Lovefraud author wrote that) and all the matters is today and a little bit the future.
    Determine your core values now and be proud of who you are.My therapist pointed out that remorse and regret, after a point, are useless….and what matters is determining who you are and knowing that NO temptation can get you away from those values.

    By the way, if you feel like fighting and you have emails like that which he sent from his work computer….that is improper use of company equipment. It is easy to tell what computer an email was sent from, let me know if you want that info, if you don’t already know.

  22. Susan,

    Thanks for your encouragement. He use to send me emails via his work computer, but it wasn’t from his work website, he simply got onto his yahoo to email. I have not had an email since December and he wouldn’t dare risk emailing me from work after the hearing because he to have absolutely no contact with me at all through work, not with my files, nothing. If I don’t feel comfortable going to the office, I can meet with someone outside the office to do my paperwork, etc. In about a year or so, I hope to be able to get FREE of being a client.


  23. Mine kept calling me,, or calling my bosses, trying to get through to me every year on my birthday for 40 years. Now I just get bombed with computer viruses each year on my birthday. Much better. I will believe I won’t ever hear from him again only when I see his obituary, though I’ve threatened what I’ll do if he does contact me. And when I actually was with him very near to one of my birthdays, what did I get? PHOTOS of some flowers. And I didn’t even get to keep the photos. No card. Some of this stuff just cracks me up now!

    And what did I give him a few months before for HIS birthday? I got the hotel to let me into his room early, and I decorated the room. I gave him something he wanted that was $500, and a cupcake for each year of his life with a candle lit when he walked in, AND a card with a poem for every year I had missed. Yes, I bought him 40 cards!! Meaningful ones, that I bought as I traveled. He never did open them all. I remember finally putting them in a paper shredder. He told me he doesn’t like cards.

  24. And he didn’t eat a single cupcake…too rich. He dumped them one by one into the trash while looking at me for a reaction. If you saw some of this stuff in a movie, it just would seem too far fetched to be real.

    Oh, and then as the next day we were to leave on almost a week trip together, he dumped me, told me to go home. I said hell no, I’m coming whether you like it or not. Man, I was stubborn! And stupid. And it made him furious. He probably had lined up someone else to replace me. 🙂

  25. It is still the work computer, even if yahoo, and that could be proven by the IP address. But I don’t really think fighting him would be worth it. If I were you, i would NEVER go to that office! I don’t think I could have healed if I had had to see the psychopath even once a month.

  26. Kelli, I think that your therapist’s comment “you weren’t right for each other” treats the psychopathic bond too much like a regular relationship where two people grew apart. That’s not what happened in this case. A social predator targeted, used and abused you emotionally for ten years. He strung you along, manipulated you, cheated on you and lied to you. As for her comment that it’s not your business what he does with his life, it’s over and you need to move on: I think this too doesn’t take into account it’s tougher to move on from such a fraudulent relationship. As you said, he made it your business. However, I find some partial validity in this attitude. Let me put it this way: the psychopath already wasted part of those 10 years of your life (the part you spent with him). Focusing on what he does with his life henceforth would be a waste of your energy. What’s most important is: now that you’re free of him, you can do so many constructive things with your life. And even the part of you that still obsesses about his horrible behavior, you’re already doing positive things with that: by offering emotional support to other victims. Claudia

  27. I think it does capture perfectly the first part of the process, when the full truth has still not hit you….Otherwise it would be a celebration of breaking free!

    Sort of like the old Nancy Sinatra song:

    You keep saying you’ve got something for me.
    something you call love, but confess.
    You’ve been messin’ where you shouldn’t have been a messin’
    and now someone else is gettin’ all your best.
    These boots are made for walking, and that’s just what they’ll do
    one of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you.
    You keep lying, when you oughta be truthin’
    and you keep losin’ when you oughta not bet.
    You keep samin’ when you oughta be changin’.
    Now what’s right is right, but you ain’t been right yet.
    These boots are made for walking, and that’s just what they’ll do
    one of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you.
    You keep playin’ where you shouldn’t be playin
    and you keep thinkin’ that you´ll never get burnt.
    Ha! I just found me a brand new box of matches yeah
    and what he know you ain’t HAD time to learn.
    Are you ready boots? Start walkin’!

    video at
    (very old!)

  28. Susan,

    I don’t have to go to that office, but it’s only a few miles away. He’s around town sometimes during lunch and after work, so I avoid those times going out around town. The entity he works for, already knows he used the computer to email me. When he was on Administrative Leave, they went through all of it. Kelli

  29. Claudia,

    I’m going to bring these feelings of mine to her attention. If this is her overall attitude, I’ll be shopping yet AGAIN for another therapist. It isn’t going to work if I feel I can’t share completely. What I don’t understand is that she works with the personality disordered, so I don’t get her unwillingness to let me talk about this. It is really an impediment to my healing and also in my therapeutic relationship with her. I don’t feel that she validates my experience by allowing me to talk about it and work it through with me. Kelli

  30. Kelli, definitely discuss it with her openly and courteously. Explain to her why it’s so important to you to go over the relationship with the psychopathic ex, to work through it in therapy. I’d even make a list of the top four reasons why and the goals you hope to achieve in therapy. That way you’ll see if you are on the same page with your therapist or if she’s not going to be helpful to you, in which case it would be a waste of health insurance and of time. Claudia

  31. Susan, I love this Nancy Sinatra song. It’s as much of a classic for saying “Good riddance!” to bad parters as Gloria Gaynor’s “I will survive”. Claudia

  32. Oh yes! That is a great one! Love it!

    But I need a song that says even if you WERE the man I thought you were, I have completely lost my appetite for your type. I look back on when I was first attracted and think WHAT WAS I THINKING.

    Turnoffs for me NOW are : arrogance, dominating personality, womanizer, head turner, charisma, etc.

    Turnons for me NOW are: compassion, respectful, non-dominating, intelligence, wit..but kind wit, maturity, a HEALTHY sense of humor (not seventh grade humor), emotional intelligence.

    My husband is not dominating or macho
    by a long shot…but when it meant justice, I’ve seen him even confront a police officer and put his finger on his badge saying, “I want your badge number”. I’ve seen him attack a man (more than once) who was beating up his wife. I’ve seen him rescue guys from a truck rolled over in the river.

    I can’t for the life of me picture the p, who thinks he’s so hot, doing any of those things!

  33. Probably a p in charge of the entity. They are everywhere!

  34. Susan, I couldn’t’ imagine my ex doing that either. He’d get “dirty” 🙂

  35. I LOVE this song!!! Even my kids know this one. LOVE IT! VERY appropriate! Kelli

  36. Susan,

    You are WAY too sweet. I brought a birthday cake to my ex at work for his 40th birthday. He took a picture of that stupid cake. And celebrated with all the employees. He was so surprised. Or at least acted like he was, said no one had ever done that for him, well now I know why. He’ll be 50 this year, perhaps new wife will throw him a big 50 bash. Anyway, one time he invited me over after school, shortly after his divorce. When I showed up, he was in a long sleeved button down shirt, no underwear and socks on and a glass of wine in hand. AND that stupid picture right there on the counter of his birthday cake. Can you say ALL ABOUT ME? I hated it, by then when he did those things. I felt set up, and wasn’t allowed to relax after school and kids, always had to have sex when HE wanted it. I disappointed him. OMG, when I think on those times now and the subtle “demands” he made, all about him, I’m so glad I’m out. Kelli

  37. Susan, you and I have arrived at the same conclusions and appreciate the same things in men now. We’re lucky to have such great husbands and even more fortunate to appreciate it. Claudia

  38. Kelli: I so appreciate your warm reply and sincere empathy of struggling with the “OW” The fact all the problems he once said existed with his current GF were all LIES LIES LIES is just more of the betrayal he inflicted upon me. What I fail to always remember is the horrible betrayal and injustice he is doing to her as well. Can you imagine how she would feel knowing he was involved with me for 4+ years? And …. God knows how many other during the course of the past 10 years they have been together he has been doing this to. Not to mention the escorts, other men and women and group encounters he is always pursuing and DOING behind her back!!!!! So he whisks her away on a vacation – BIG DEAL its a vacation with a man that does this to her. That is EXACTLY what it is Kelli, its maintenance and that is also what my counselor told me; he must give her SOMETHING to insure she will stay and give her the illusion they are “a couple”.

    Over the course of the past 5 years I was always upset when I knew they were going on a vacation and it was interesting how he would try and manipulate my anger and hurt by saying: ” Now you are all mad and pissy that I am taking a vacation so when you have gotten over your pouting give me a call” HE NEVER GOT IT, I was never upset he was vacationing with her, I was upset because he should have never been with her as he was conning me but he always had a way of bypassing what the REAL issue was and making it MY FAULT. But this is what paths do best!!!

    I had a nice little talk with myself yesterday and asked myself “what KIND of a person does this to someone?” What kind of a person WANTS you to fall deeply in love with him to only try to get you to do perverted sexual immoral acts with them (and others) and in that same process rewards you and punishes you in that pursuit? What kind of person maintains a relationship for image and normalacy purposes and views another human being as a “main source or dupe?” What kind of person views all other human beings as SUPPLY? What kind of person delights in the painful painful painful game of love triangulation? What kind of person gets some sick sick satisfaction to know you love them and WANTS to hurt you because you love him? What kind of person wants to exploit you sexually? What kind of person is he that it give him a feeling of power to know he can break my heart?
    No Kelli I think it is I that is “not getting it” THis man RAPED me and I am hurt because he is off living with another woman and taking vacations with her? WHY on earth would this hurt me? Yes the betrayal is understandable as well as the fact I was taken for a ride by a psychopath but what I am failing to accept is the bottom line here….. THIS IS A ROTTEN ROTTEN person to the core – this is a person that destroys other human beings because he is HIGHLY disturbed and he does what he does for the sole purpose of feeding his sickness. THis will also apply to YOUR situation also Kelli; he may come home to HER everyday, he may take vacations with HER he may sit down to dinners with HER and we may never understand why it was HER they chose but I can guarantee you it was never because of something we lacked but more of something THEY LACK in their disordered lives. DO I really care why a psychopath chose this woman over me? Thats like trying to figure out why some killers go after blonds only. There is no rhyme or reason to their behaviors when it comes to some matters. Sure we know what the general behaviors are that are associated with Clusters and that should be ENOUGH. I should be focused and more concerned about WHAT HE IS than WHY he chose who he chose.

    He does not leave his pathology at the back door step when he comes home every night to her it goes into the house with him. We assume being the OW that it was WORSE for us and they treat their partners better? REALLY Kelli? Please dont ever say that again honey because what he hides from her and does behind her back is JUST AS HORRIBLE as what they did up front with us. So you choose Kelli which role would be better, and I asked myself this in my conversation with myself last night – would you like to crawl in bed every night and sleep next to someone this ROTTEN, sick and demented? She probably has no idea what he REALLY is and the sick things he engages in and all the wonderful good people he has delighted in destroying – but WE DO – so we bow out gracefully and leave this disordered person who will ALWAYS and FOREVER be what they are no matter WHO they are with x0 Linda

  39. Linda,

    What you say is so true. I’ve been thinking a lot about this too. On another blog I go too, there was a WIFE who was left for the OW and she was left behind with a child. He acts like he’s happy with the OW and appears to give the OW everything SHE didn’t get from him. That floored me. It gave me another perspective in that he can do the reverse as well. She felt she was HIS poison container. Her perspective was interesting. Many Clusters will also leave their WIVES for the OW’s. My ex’s image of normalcy is so important to him, he begged his wife not to divorce him, to work the marriage, while, of course, he never bothered to tell her he was still involved with me, well, so I did. That was her ticket out. What HE wanted was more important than her happiness and he had every opportunity to work on his marriage and never did. When I asked why it was always “Too much work” and that for him, is where it ends. When he has to “Work” he’s done. Eventually, in a relationship we all have to WORK at it. Psychopaths aren’t willing to do that. They like things just the way they are in the idealization phase when we’re fawning all over them.

    Linda, I also think that because OW’s are so compartmentalized from the main relationship he has with the GF/Wife, we aren’t privy to what’s going on with them at home. They keep us away from that on purpose so we DON”T see what’s going on at home and so that SHE doesn’t find out. This makes the illusion, carrot dangle and lies seem much more VALID. I never got proof of much. I SUSPECTED a lot, but didn’t have proof. But you’re right, who DOES that?? WHo cheats on his wife for TEN years, half way into the affair, tells his wife himself, then calls the OW (me) because she’s in fetal position on the floor and he doesn’t know “what to do”? SERIOUSLY? This was incredibly shocking me to me. Only to put out the lure eight months later after “trying to work” the marriage. She stayed another five years, but it was never the same again. He found out about HER affair she was having, and then BLASTED her for it, while of course never telling her that we were still involved, so again, I did. HIs extreme grandiosity and entitlement were played out throughout their separation and divorce. He was such a bastard and she didn’t let him get away with ANYTHING. I’m sure to some extent, now that’s he’s married at lightning speed, he can torture his ex much more easily through the children as he has joint custody. HIs son begged him not to get married again. He gives no consideration to his own behavior, his own needs, that affect the lives of others. He wanted money. He got it. And I’m sure, as he was doing before, he’s still buying the children, but using her money to do it. I can’t imagine how his ex must feel now, but I’m almost certain that he tries as hard as he can to make her jealous or to use the children to hurt her, through his disneyland dad shit. He wanted custody of his son. NOw he has the money to fight her, as well as an ally who has been filled with lies about her, while she doesn’t have the resources. WHO DOES THAT?

    He does. Things might be peachy for now, for him, even for her, but it can’t stay that way once he’s required to “work”.

    I”m so tired of the mindfucking that comes with these people. I see how twisted my brain has been throughout the relationship. It’s going to take some time to untwist the knots. Like you, I was blamed for everything too. perhaps we are all poison containers, Linda. Just manifested through his pathology in each relationship in different ways. Kelli

  40. Kelli: I had to reply under this sorry …. but yes that is also what I ask myself WHO DOES SUCH HORRIBLE THINGS? WHAT KIND OF PERSON CAN DO THESE THINGS? Well we all know the answer to that but I think that is where our focus should be centered on and NOT the questions we ask ourselves, oh why was she chosen and not me, etc…. Honestly I have to say I was so trapped in his sick world for so long that I threw aside the things in life that I once cherished and admired – he once appeared larger than life to me but let me tell you he is being quickly reduced to the low life scum that he is. Here is a better analogy for you to think over who lives with a woman he claims to love and has side women he calls up and tells them he wants a man to suck him off as I squeeze his balls then do this and that and this and that (I will stop there because I dont want to offend others) I wanted to point out this perverse example so we get back to WHO DOES THIS, WHAT KIND of person says things like this? And in your case is YOUR x path someone you can say you admire and respect by what he has done and what his behavior is? OF COURSE NOT. Then we really have to ask ourselves Kelly why in the hell are we wondering why WE were not good enough (thats a laugh) to be the main woman? Maybe yours was not as perverse as mine but that DOES NOT MATTER Kelli – yours has no remorse for the wrong he has done to others and there it is—- that is the very thing that makes them ROTTEN and pathological. In other words I am questioning why a person that is rotten to the core, a sexual predator, sexually deviated person who has to manipulate, and con others under false pretense did not find value in me to be the chosen one? When he himself has no value as a human being in any respect. What I am doing is lowering myself as a person to question this. Why would I WANT a person such as this to find value in ME? I already KNOW I am a person of value and I dont need a psychopath of all people to give me that validation by choosing ME. I DONT WANT HIM – I am the one making the decision here, I am the one that in the end discarded HIM. I had a cycle too – I idolized him, I ripped his mask off, and then I discarded him. It can work both ways Linda

  41. That’s the right attitude! Yea!

    That is why I can truthfully say I no longer have even ONE good memory about the p. Who he is at the core is too sickening. What he has done in so many venues, not all sexual, is sickening. So exploitive!

  42. Kelli: I almost forgot, of course they will never tell us the truth of anything. I have NO IDEA what their relationship is REALLY like at home for all I know he could beat the crap out of her, but I doubt it being a sheriff (too risky for his image) When he is working on a new target he probably is very unatentive of her needs, when he is spent from having his other sexual sick encounters she is ignored and neglected, so I have no idea what the dynamics of their relationshiT is on a regular basis and I really dont care anymore. I am starting to work through these issues these past few days. It bad enough when a partner cheats let alone having a path to deal with everyday. These individuals are serial cheaters their cheating is not just a one time mistake and it never happens again, most of them are sexual and social predators of the WORST KIND they actively hunt 24-7 for any and all opportunities that will give them what they are looking for, I am sure this is what he does behind her back and she is the lucky chosen one? Sex, money, whatever they are after NONE OF IT IS worthy. Would you want to be married to someone who married you just for your money? If she were dirty poor would he REALLY love her, ya right!! Linda

  43. Linda, don’t forget that Drew Peterson was a cop, and he beat his wives and then killed them. Being a cop and being abusive are not mutually exclusive. Claudia

  44. Linda,

    I discarded mine too School really saved my life as he tried to sabotage that with his incessant selfish demands and claiming that I was now a “challenge” because I was UNREACHABLE. Oh brother!

    It’s true, mine is sexually deviant in a different way. But still the bottom line behaviors are the same, no remorse, no guilt, no shame, lying manipulating and exploiting to the hilt. you may have helped me out here in a way.

    The pathologicals behaviors are manifested differently in every relationship, it’s always a mask worn for that particular victim and what the victim requires is not the same as the last or the ones to come. It doesn’t remove the reality that he’s STILL pathological. It doesn’t change it and it doesn’t make the next one the lucky one, but the one who will be wounded beyond wounding. I have often tried to think of a way to let her know, sort of indirectly, because she has so much money on the line, but I think I need to let that pass. It just seems so painful and such a shame that he married her for money and that I know it. Part of the reason I hope he does not contact me in the next year when he knows where I live. when my son graduates in June, he will not, as I will remove myself from the area. I don’t want to see any fallout or have him hoovering in the event, when I knew what he was doing to her and why. I realize it’s not my responsibility, her choices, but it’s just sad.

    Sometimes I feel REALLY strong and other times, not so much. I get triggered by the OW/sexual stuff very easily. But I really need to keep in mind that his pathology will play out, no matter whom he’s with and not just on the new wife either, but on the ex, the kids……UGH! Kelli

  45. Claudia, Loved the video and the song; very poignant and moving. psychopaths have no concept of sentimentality; they do not understand what it is like to have waves of loss and sadness crashing over them like we do. Once they’ve switched victims their true colors and the complete emptiness reveals itself it is as if we fall down into their empty black pits of nothingness. That is untill we begin the long hard haul of clawing our way out.

  46. Linda

    I agree with claudia about the cop issue. One of my dearest friends was married to a cop for four years. Found out that he was a psychopath of one of the WORST kinds. I always felt he was TOO in control of himself. Walked around like a bad ass. The things she found out and the things he was trying to do to her once he knew that she knew, meant she had to literally RUN from my state across the country to get AWAY from this man. Her son is brilliant and caught him doing some NASTY things on video that he planned to do to her. They can sometimes be the WORST abusers and they are protected by their cop buddies too!!! Kelli

  47. Susan,
    I had something happen yesterday that was kinda mind blowing for me. I was at the store with my pregnant daughter and her partner. she loves to point out when men are checking me out. I HATE this and she knows it, but yet once again, she called it to my attention. The guy was already in the store as we were exiting and she called him a “Grandpa” Oh great. Anyway, I was totally grossed out by this, I don’t want any man looking at me. I thought about that for awhile. Sure, there’s the self esteem issues and I don’t feel as attractive as I use to feel. As I questioned myself more, I realized that I’m very set in my ways. I like just being around my sons and my dog, and my other children and grandchildren when they are here. I don’t have anyone telling me what to do or raising my blood pressure with walking on eggshells, in fact, lately, my blood pressure has been normalized and steady, WITHOUT medication. I totally believe this is because I’ve been away from him long enough that my body is starting to balance out now. I have other health issues I just found out that I’m having to deal with, but it’s okay. I wouldn’t be with this man if I could be. I’m seeing how he messed up even my physical well being. It was so incredibly stressful. The healing process is to, but to a different degree. I like being alone now. I want to learn how to be alone and if that’s what it is the rest of my life, be okay with that. A man can’t complete me, but what I have within myself can.

    I think I’m mourning the loss of what was my dream in simpler terms, a good man, a good marriage, just lovin and being together, doing our own thing apart but sharing about it at the end of the day, enjoying the children and grandchildren. It was the only dream I really had, while everything else is secondary. Now, my dream has to change. I’m seeing that it may never be realized. I’m too picky about men and how I live now. I think I’m fine, just the way it is. Kelli

  48. Michael, I’m so glad you liked the video. Katie Melua is one of my favorite singers. She’s very lyrical. And “empty black pits of nothingness” is an apt characterization of psychopaths. As Sarah put it in her book, “Dark Souls”. Claudia

  49. Kelli, your attitude seems healthy to me. You’re focusing on recuperating from so many bad relationships and on your family. There’s no reason why you should feel any social pressure to date. When you’ll be ready you’ll do it again. Claudia

  50. You are so good at finding the perfect songs….you should make a collection that walks a listener through the stages…the initial attraction (all I know are the oldies, like Atlanta Rhythm Section…So Into You), the betrayal, etc….Somewhere in there “There must be 50 ways to leave your lover”.


  51. Susan, for all the cyberstalker ex’s out there, “Every breath you take” by the Police has to be at the top of the song list. That song gave me the creeps even in high school. Claudia

  52. I think it is wonderful that you feel so complete. It is a very great and positive sign and yes, mind blowing! I think that for many women, their children and women friends end up their greatest sources of support!

  53. Linda, you wrote that you made many wrong choices and wish to understand why. Well, we all strive to make the right choices always — but our choices are based on the limited information we have at the time, and entering into any new relationship carries an inherent degree of risk. Psychopaths, those notorious liars, intentionally give us false information to lure us into making choices that will always turn out to be the wrong ones for us in the long run. Is it really our fault that we end up making choices that turn out to be so painfully wrong? Look at what we had to go on!

    To some degree, I concur with most therapists that we all had some weaknesses, we all let down our boundaries too much, we were too trusting — but these are NORMAL characteristics of anyone entering into a new and exciting relationship. And they’re almost irrelevant compared to the overriding fact that we were bamboozled by an abnormal, self-serving psychopath at a time when we had no clue that such people even existed, let alone how to recognize them!

    Linda, since you don’t seem thrilled with your therapist, I’d like to add a couple of observations. First, experience with personality disorders does not equal experience with repairing the damage caused by them, not one bit. Second, my own therapist heard and completely understood validated all of the significant events of my 18-month relation-shit in a mere 30 minutes. She obviously understood what abuse was all about, and I’m concerned that yours doesn’t.

    My therapist used a three-stage approach: (1) tried to understand my relationship history and current emotional situation, (2) worked on repairing the damage done, and finally (3) worked on preventing similar tragedies from recurring in the future. Sadly, I have read dozens of accounts on various forums which lead me to believe that many therapists deal with steps 1 and 2 too briefly and simply skipping to step 3, trying to “fix” the victim. The result is that the effects of the abuse remain strong while the therapist keeps telling you what’s wrong with you and what you need to do about it. Not a pleasant situation; with such an inappropriate approach, it’s no wonder some people take two or three years to get over the trauma.

    The danger with many psychologists is that they’re heavily trained in CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy), which really only applies to step 3. I’m of the opinion that if you don’t feel comfortable that the therapist really understands abuse and your personal situation in the very first session, you should move on. Here on this blog, we seem to understand each other instantly; there’s no reason that a trained (and paid) professional shouldn’t be able to understand and assess your situation and offer a plan of treatment within the first one-hour session.

    I might also add that I’ve been having regular Chinese acupressure massage sessions to try to balance my physical and emotional well-being. I don’t know if you’re a believer in the mind-body connection, but I think that working on both is always a very good idea; there seens to be a synergy there.

    Hope this helps – Julian.

    P.S. Yes, it’s me who lost my beautiful Persian cat to my nefarious and unsavoury ex-girl-fiend. Fortunately, I had two and Kara is still with me, and very happy to have me all to herself. And I’ll bet your Eleanore loves you back just as much as you love her. It’s always great to meet another cat person. I think the biggest difference between cats and dogs is that you have to earn a cat’s respect and devotion, while a dog will give it willingly. Tells you something about their owners, doesn’t it?

  54. Michael, I just wanted to say that I so admire your brief and eloquent comments. I really hope you write that book; I’m sure it will be a terrific read! – Julian.

  55. I just wanted to share this with all of you, see if you can relate.

    My list of positives since he’s been gone:

    1. when the phone rings I don’t jump with anxiety, and I no longer fear what he’s going to say to ruin my day or have to listen to him DRIVEL ON about work or anything else.

    2. I don’t have to meet his demands and can now spend time freely
    with my children and friends without worrying about whether or not he’s going to be pissed off, or give me the silent treatment because I didn’t meet his demand RIGHT NOW

    3. I no longer feel obligated to have sex with him.

    4. I no longer feel I need to drink alcohol to live with, deal with or have sex with him (I’m SO HAPPY TO BE FREE OF THIS NOW!)

    5. I don’t have to listen to him go on and on about how great his kids are, while mine are shit.

    6. I don’t have to listen to him whine, snivel and manipulate me or fly into a rage because he’s pissed off AGAIN at his ex wife and her “machinations” about the children.

    7. I don’t have to worry about whether or not he’s going to kick my wiener dog out of the way when he comes in the door.

    8. I’m anxiety free, for the most part. EVERYTIME he walked into the room, I had MASSIVE anxiety, now I know what it really was, FEAR!

    9. I can eat whatever I want, WHEN I want. I can smoke a cigarette if I FEEL like it on my back porch and enjoy the forested environment around me (yes, I know, contradictory LOL)

    10. I can be excited for my brand new grandchild that will arrive in March, when I didn’t get the pleasure with my first two because my whole LIFE was wrapped up into his short fat ass.

    11. I will graduate from college and be successful, even at 48, he tried to sabotage ALL my efforts!

    12. I cooked elaborate lunches for his stupid ass everyday for ten years, other than weekends (although after his divorce, I was doing it weekends too), and I began to HATE cooking, always worried about whether he liked what I made or whether or not he’d not show up at the last minute. I’m cooking again now, what I WANT, not what HE wants and for my children, who appreciate anything I make!

    13. My blood pressure is back to normal, where when I was with him, my doctor feared I would stroke out it was so high. (this is why I’m convinced that they can murder by suicide and/or are so evil your stress levels cause heart attacks, strokes and many other health problems).

    I”M SO GLAD TO BE FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  56. Kelli, I think what I recently wrote – experience with personality disorders does not equal experience with repairing the damage caused by them, not one bit! – applies very much here! – Julian.

  57. Wow, Kelli! I can relate to all of them except #7 (sorry, I’m a cat person) and #12 (but my version is is constantly fixing broken and worn out things around a 120-year-old house that had ants coming up from the rotting framing through the cracks in the hardwood floor). 10 and 11 don’t apply, but the rest certainly do.

    It wasn’t until a few months after I left that I realized that her house was completely befitting a psychopath – the foundation was crumbling away, the wood-frame structure was rotting and infested with insects – but it had all been covered up with a veneer of fresh vinyl siding on the outside and extra-thin layer of drywall (or sheetrock, depending on where you live) to cover the hundreds of cracks in the plaster walls on the inside.

    Everything was so carefully designed to look good when in fact it was all rotten at the core. – Julian.

  58. Julian,

    I hope that statement you made about dog owners, versus cat, you were just kidding, because I took offense to it. 🙂

    I have a wiener. Yes dog. He is my absolute best friend. Loyalty actually means something to me after the psychopath experience 🙂

    Anyway, he’s been rather ill on and off, the last few years. I think it says something about me personally, that I’ve spent hundreds if not into the thousands over the last four years, keeping my dog alive. He has a back condition called IVDD. It’s very common in dachshunds, and usually occurs as they age. Unfortunately, mine got sick with it at three. It happens so fast, the owners are distressed and shocked at how much pain their pet is in. He went from running, chasing tennis balls, to literally paralyzed and incontinent the next. Literally. Most vets wanted to put him down because it would have cost me five thousand for a surgery, money I did not have on the spot to save his life. So I used all my rent, bill money and food money for one month, going from vet to vet. Pretty irresponsible, discompassionate dog ownership, not to mention my loyalty to HIM without expecting anything in return, because, well he couldn’t give that at the time. I finally found a vet who was willing to work with me and gave him pain meds, steroids and strict crate rest for eight weeks. MANY nights were spent, in the middle of the night, giving him hand held baths because he’d crap all over himself and his kennel. I took his crate and he with me wherever I went, unless there was someone there to watch him. One day, (as he LOVES tennis balls), our other wiener at the time, was running across the house, chasing a tennis ball. I was somewhere else in the house and my wiener was out of his crate, OMG!!! I was frantic…but ya know what? He was under my kitchen table. He had crawled over to try to get the ball, peeing the whole way. I knew then, that all the mutual loyalty was paying off. 🙂

    I guess I shouldn’t let things like that bother me. But as much as I love my dog, I guess it kinda did. Kelli

  59. Julian,

    How funny. Same with my ex’s house too. On the outside it’s all METICULOUSLY landscaped, although there is hardly any color mixed it. Rather drab. He had ants in his house SO BAD and did NOTHING about it. He would do shoddy jobs on anything in the house. Everything he did was never par. You are SO RIGHT! I’m glad you related! It’s validating, isn’t it? I know, I’m not much of a cat person, but I do appreciate others love for cats. Claudia is one of them. Plus, I’m highly allergic! Kelli

  60. Kelli, I truly admire your devotion and commitment to your weiner. In my experience, very few people would go to such great lengths for their animal companion, and that speaks volumes about you.

    I apologize if I touched a nerve, that was not my intention. I love dogs just as much as cats, and have volunteered for the local SPCA on several ghastly puppy-mill seizures. And I had an absolutely wonderful Shetland Sheepdog in my younger years when I was living with my parents.

    I firmly believe that we are equals with our animal brethren here on this planet, and I merely wanted to point out a difference between cats and dogs that I have noticed in my many years of dealing with both. Again, there was no offence intended. – Julian.

  61. Kelli, how extra funny! My ex’s vinyl siding was gray, and the interior drywall/sheetrock was off-white. No style, no personality. But she would meticulously mow the lawn (and make me do so too) just to keep up appearances.

    Likewise, although I’ve made the transition from a dog person to a cat person many years ago (and there are reasons that I won’t get into tight now), I still have an undying admiration for both, and especially for owners that take care of them well, like you.

    In a previous comment, I wrote about my sadness and frustration at pet owners who drop their animals off at the SPCA because they’re “tired of them” – that’s what irritates me the most.

    My best wishes to you and your little weiner. – Julian.

  62. I thought I’d add one more interesting thing about my ex’s house – it was always so dark! The blinds were always drawn tightly shut so that no one could look inside.

    Now that I’m back in my own home, the blinds are always up and the windows wide open. I just love waking up in the mornings with the sunshine and fresh air pouring through. It might seem like a little thing, but in retrospect, it’s actually pretty big. I have nothing to hide from my neighbours, my cat loves to sleep in the sunbeams, and everything is just so right again. – Julian.

  63. Julian,

    I figured as much. I appreciate the clarification. I do recall you saying that about the SPCA now too.

    My ex HATED my dog. Of course, anything he had was better than mine and he had a dog, but treated her like shit. It always bothered me. But he projected that onto me, as if I would purposely hurt HIS dog, while favoring mine, totally childish, ridiculous behavior. What happened to create that feeling, was so far from who I am with regards to animals and was probably one of the MOST hurtful things he did to me. So I think that statement touched a nerve with me. He would make fun of how much I loved my dog in an offhanded manner. As if there was something wrong with it. UGH! Another thing on the list I’m SO happy to be without now. I grow more appreciative everyday of his ABSENCE and understand that many of the questions that linger, I will never have answers too. This is one of them. Kelli

  64. Julian,

    Mine would open the shades during the day, close them immediately, even before dark. Even with the shades open, it was dark and creepy in there. What’s so odd is that he could decorate and paint walls that looked really good, with good color. But there was also something ODD about it. I can’t explain that, because if you looked closer at it, it was a shoddy job. I can’t explain it. There is just SOMETHING about a house that’s filled with love and comfort, Julian. Like pictures (he had FEW) and flowers, and beautiful curtains (I love lace curtains, soft things), candles, stuff like that. I want everyone to feel comfortable who comes here. LIke it’s LIVED IN. The room that frightened me the most, was HIS room. It was the darkest room in the entire house and guess what? The shades were ALWAYS drawn! Kelli

  65. Kelli, what a great list of positives! I hope you printed it out so you can look at it whenever you have any moment of missing the (bad) habit of being with him. Since we don’t miss the psychopaths. It’s an addiction, so it’s the habit we miss, not the actual person (whom we come to know as horrific). Claudia

  66. Julian, I agree. Cats and dogs are wonderful companions, more loyal than people quite often. I’m so glad to see so many animal lovers on this website. Claudia

  67. Julian,

    LOL! Are they ALL alike or what? Mine had SUCH a fetish about the outside of the house and having the LAWN mowed to perfection. The back was pretty much neglected, but the front had to be PERFECT. Mine has vinyl on the outside too. The roof looked rickety, like it was going to collapse in the middle. What a jack ass! New wife has tons of money and he’s been wanting to “upgrade” his house. Well, now he can do that and doesn’t have to do it himself. That POOR WOMAN! Kelli

  68. Julian, you raise excellent points about therapy. You’re absolutely right, therapists are usually trained in cognitive behavioral therapy, basically, understanding why we behave the way we do. But I think a knowledge of personality disorders is absolutely necessary for therapists as a supplement to that approach. Because then the therapy focuses not only on the patient’s/victim’s patterns of behavior but also on eliminating from his or her life an unfixably bad choice: a person who can’t change, won’t change, and can only bring you down. Once you grasp this basic psychological fact and get rid of such a big stumbling block to any improvement, then you can focus on all the elements the victim needs to understand better about his or her life and fix. Nothing can be fixed or even improved when the Trojan horse of a personality disordered person is still in your life. Claudia

  69. Julian,

    I couldn’t do what you did at the SPCA. It would be so incredibly heartbreaking. Recently, a neighbor of mine found five kittens tossed into a dumpster where we live. she was crying outside on the sidewalk as I came home from taking my son to work, when I looked down, there was a box with five kittens! She told me what happened and I told her I’d find a way to take care of them. So, ultimately, my daughter and I bottled fed them, bathed and cleaned them (Mom was gone), until we could find a good home or a surrogate for them. We were really lucky as the woman that took the kittens was a vet tech and works at a 24 hour animal hospital. They would all get good homes (She’s keeping two and giving one to a friend), and they would all have free worming and spay/neutering. We felt SO good about that. I wouldn’t throw my children away like that, why would someone do it to five precious kittens who didn’t ask to be born! If I worked in a place where someone was simply tired of their pets or abandoning them in some other way, I would just be devastated everyday. it’s very admirable what you have done to save or help pets that are unwanted. Kellli

  70. Julian Thank you!! I was quite impressed with my counselors knowledge of Cluster B, however maybe his actual counseling for the recovery of such an encounter was not the best. He offered me wonderful knowledge and advise but seems I have learned so much more from others who have lived the experience. However, he KNEW his stuff but maybe lacked a long term plan and goal for the recovery process such as taking it in steps etc. as yours did. Your observation makes sense, just because I have had the experience and have come full circle in knowing what kind of person I was dealing with DOES NOT mean it will aid in my recovery, – there are counselors that are trained and have studied what is involved for those that have been exposed to the damage of this type of personality disorder. THey KNOW what damage it inflicts and they know what treatment is necessary to heal the victim/patient.

    How very true; the fact I made wrong choices was because I was under a false illusion of a disordered person who WANTED me to make WRONG choices. Its still hard some days to try and understand and accept how someone who you only loved and cherished wanted to deliberately hurt you, such an EVIL EVIL concept to understand. Kelli and I have been trying to reach out to each other and get to the core of why we felt so rejected because WE were not chosen to be the live in companion of wife. How crazy does this sound: ” Why didnt the psychopath want me”? A normal person would say, BE GLAD he doesnt want you WHY do you want him to choose you? If I walked up to a stranger on the street and said I am so unhappy today because a psychopath didnt want to spend his life with me they would think I was CRAZY. It stems down to rejection and humans HATE to be rejected but this is one person I am thanking GOD above that rejected me.

    OMG YES my cat LOVES me so much, sleeps on my stomach every night curled up. She is my life line at times and she has shown me I can still love. Thanks Julian Love Linda

  71. Julian

    I really appreciate your comments to Linda about therapy. I think you’re absolutely correct about that. I’m going to have a conversation with her this Friday about it. If she isn’t open to working with me with regards to pathology or has a get over it attitude, I can’t work with that. She IS heavily trained in CBT, and while I think CBT is GREAT, I also think that it’s a STRONG stumbling block to those who are just out of pathological relationships You have to have someone who really gets it. I think the healing process proceeds much faster with someone who does and can validate the experience. That’s the feeling I get. Thanks for your post about that. I’m learning that with therapists, there are boundaries too. There were a few things said that I felt were inappropriate to my situation. It doesn’t mean that she’s not good, it just means she may not work for me with this approach. Kelli

  72. Kelli…hey good for you. That kind of honest feedback is great psychopath protection.

    I will give some honest feedback too. When you have done things like Julian has done and someone says “Oh, I couldn’t do that, it would break my heart”, it may be meant as a compliment, but when someone says it to me, I have to tell them. “Well, guess what, my heart DID break, but I did it anyway, BECAUSE I care so much.”

    I am trying to talk a funder into setting up a call in therapy number for people who have PTSD because of the heartbreaking work they have done for animals. If you care enough to go in and do a rescue in a horrible situation, then in most cases (there might be a psychopath doing it for god knows what reason, but pretty rare), the person cares enough to have some nightmares, flashbacks, etc. about the whole situation. Except for those who are autistic or are a p, etc., the work is NEVER easy for anyone who does it. It hurt their heart just as much as it would hurt yours.

    At the same time, I have respect for those who wisely avoid exposing themselves to more trauma, given their life history. Several therapists have told me not to deliberately expose myself to more trauma, and I have a girlfriend who definitely lost herself for awhile due to so much undercover animal abuse work and is on medication to this day. I try to limit my exposure, but it is part of my job and I’m doing okay.

    But I think you can see how it hurts when someone says “I could never do that.” It almost sounds like we’ve done something wrong, or that we care less than the person making the statement.

    There, we’ve both had a good exercise in stating our true feelings. That is SO essential for p protection. And Kelli, I know YOU recently did a hard thing for animals too, as you explain below, because you took on the possible pain of having one die right in your hands. And you did express your admiration for Julian quite openly. But that phrase “Oh, I could never do that” is a big “pet” peeve of animal welfare workers.

    By the way, I LOVED your list. GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  73. Susan, I find what you do for animals, who don’t have anyone except kind-hearted people like you, Julian and others, to speak for them and their rights, so commendable. It takes so much empathy and courage to do what you do. Claudia

  74. Susan,

    I understand what you’re saying, I didn’t mean “I could never do that” as something bad, but as something I know I COULD NOT personally do. And that was the truth. Why? I wouldn’t be strong enough to deal with it. I know how painful it is to have a pet who is sick. Or to watch someone throw away five newborn kittens. They survived. I’m sure I wouldn’t feel that way if one of them had not. NOt all of them have happy endings and unfortunately, far too many are euthanized. I can’t imagine what you see. Some of us have gifts in certain areas, yours and Julian’s happens to be working with animals who are rejected, abandoned or very sick. Mine is in hospice. Not many “could do that” either. I guess it’s a perception issue. When people say to me, about hospice work, I could NEVER do that, I don’t take it as a slam, but a compliment, because in reality FEW really can. This is why I’m grateful for those who can deal with animal neglect. Few can really do that and be devoted to it, despite the trauma. There is plenty of trauma in hospice work as well. I just happen to have a gift in being able to deal with it, just as you do with animals. It takes a lot of special people to do certain things that others may not be strong enough to do. It’s interesting to note, that for what I’ve seen in hospice work, that it has NOT had a traumatic affect on me, why that is, I don’t know. Big hearts and a lot of patience and time, compassion and care. I admire what you do, as well as Julian in trying to save animals. It IS heartbreaking for me to even THINK about what people do to what is suppose to be their pets. They are helpless victims in a society that is, I think, universally narcissistic. But I’ve also seen far too many patients die alone, without family, and with only the care of a hospice worker in being the last of who cares at all. I didn’t mean to offend you at all. I hope this helps in clarifying my statement. I’ll not use it again here so as to respect your feelings about the issue. Kelli

  75. Kelli, Susan, Julian, I don’t see any disagreement whatsoever here. We all believe in helping animals, who can’t help themselves, and about whom human beings often have such double standards (particularly with regard to lab testing for products on animals, or their slaughter for food in such inhumane ways and conditions). I think our empathy needs to stretch to other species, and am so glad to see so many animal lovers and animal rights defenders on this website. We all do what we can, whether that be saving five kittens, like Kelli; unwanted pets, like Julian, or whole endangered species, like Susan. Even those of us who treat lovingly our own pets, or get them from the animal shelter, are doing our part to help animals in need in our own way. You have great hearts and the capacity to see that empathy should extend to all living beings, not just our own species. Claudia

  76. Kelli, this is just too funny – your ex and mine must be somehow related. In her bedroom, the shades were always drawn also. In the entire year I lived with her, never once were they opened. But when she had the vinyl siding done, she had the bedroom windows replaced and I wonder why she even bothered.

    That “shoddy job” feeling, I suspect it’s the “look and feel” that results from work done without love and care. Things don’t have to be new or perfect for a warm and inviting feel. My place has houseplants in all three bay windows, and in between the plants there is a cat perch or two. The odd person has remarked that the perches should go in favour of a more balanced arrangement of plants, but the majority, when seeing a cat or two peacefully napping in the sunshine among the plants, call it “perfect” instead of “balanced.” – Julian.

  77. Kelli; I firmly bepieve that only a highly trained therapist in the area of the impact of a pathological relationship can help a victim. the experience of a pathological relationship is simply beyond the comprehension of anyone who had not experienced one. That is not to say that a therapist has to have experienced a pathological relationship to be effective. i just sincerely believe that it is a highly specialised area of trauma. Part of the reason we were harmed during the encounter is through our lack of knowing what a cluster b personality disorder is; in other words our normalcy actually works against us as we try to normatively make sense of their behaviour. As a result we are naive to the fact that we are in an emotional meat grinder and not in a real / normal relationship. It is, I believe a unique form of harm as the psychopath uses their mask to manipulate us and all along there was no emotional bond with us, because they are incapable of loving. We did not and could not have known this. A therapisy who is not highly trained in this area runs the risk of causing more harm and invalidating us and our experince. Recall in Sandra’s book she says the bulk of the inital therapy is educating the victim around what a PD is and why they do what they do. Then we can focus on us. Otherwise we become stuck just trying to figure out what the hell we have been through and who the hell it is we encountered. We become trapped in trying to make sense of it all. I’m a pretty understanding and thoughtful guy, and I’m no fool. But Kelli I openly admit I was way way out of my depth when it came to making sense of what I had been through with this woman. We are challenged to think well outside the box of our own humanity to grasp Borderlines, Narcissists, psychopaths. They all shoulder into each other; they are at their core, the same personality construct. Most therapist quite rightly work on the premise of “lets talk about you, whats the problem/s, and what resources do you have to overcome them” (depending on their school of though and orientation of course). I’m not knocking this; as a CBT trained practitioner from a solution focused background, this is a sound position to take.
    However; having been victimised by a disorderd woman; my problem, I would state looked something like this – “I feel like every sense I have, every intuitive knowing that i ever had, every previous aspect of my knowledge of what people are fundametally, and evry aspect of my sense of trust in others has been totally violated and I just dont know who to trust anymore; I struggle to even trust my own judgement anymore; Ive never been so catastohically wrong about anything in my life before”. Such is the legacy of a psychopathic relationship untill we meet someone who can validate and educate us about whome and what we were dealing with.

  78. Forgive my spelling and grammer! I have just finished a 12 hour shift on a dementia untit (at least thats my excuse and I’m sticking to it) 🙂

  79. Linda, Claudia, Susan, Kelli, thank you for the comments and kind compliments. I’d just like to add that I do the “tough stuff” for the SPCA only two or three times a year, because I’ve seen others suffer from PTSD specifically due to their volunteering for every project that came up.

    My first experience with therapy was 12 years ago when I suffered a clinical burnout on account of a totally crazy boss (who I’m now sure was a psychopath). Even back then, the therapist followed the three-step process: listen to what happened, deal with the PTSD, and only when I was stronger did we begin CBT to identify consistent behaviours like taking on too much at once. I found her therapy so, so valuable that I continued for another 3-4 months after my insurance ran out.

    So I’m rather adamant about finding a counselor who is well versed with the abuse and trauma suffered at the hands of a psychopath.

  80. As usual, Michael (typing at the same time as I) said it much more eloquently – I just love that “emotional meat grinder” analogy! Michael, I sure hope that dementia isn’t contagious! 🙂 – Julian.

  81. Michael

    ROFLOL!!!! On the dementia unit and now struggling with spelling and grammar! You are SO funny! I did not expect that with the post you wrote prior!

    Michael, I do understand what CBT is all about. I sometimes feel like giving up on the therapy thing. I’m feeling very discouraged. this is the THIRD therapist I’ve been too and I still feel like I’m not being heard about this relationship. It’s truly exhausting. There ARE those in the field in this part of my state that do work with victims of psychopathic trauma, but my insurance does not cover it and i am unable to afford it on my own. I almost think it’s worth it’s weight in gold if you find a great therapist, but I’m convinced without a shadow of doubt, that I know what I need, and I’m going to state that very clearly to her tomorrow. If we cannot agree or she cannot serve me as a client in that capacity, I will simply not go anymore. I’m tired and discouraged from looking and finding nothing. I probably don’t really mean that LOL….it’s disheartening when you want the help so much, but feel it’s just not there. I wish I had more years. .I would finish my degree in the field of psychology with an emphasis on helping victims of PD. Maybe there is a way I can do that, in my own community someday, without having to be a licensed therapist, but simply as one who has experienced pathologicals my entire life. Thanks Michael for being so clear about the difficulty with therapy.. You are very much spot on. Kelli

  82. Kel, I agree about not giving up until you find a therapist who knows about personality disorders and PTSD and with whom you can agree on your therapy goals. I hope the one you have will be that one, so that you don’t have to look anymore. In the meantime, please keep in mind that you are helping others based on your experience with PD individuals right here. Claudia

  83. All – I tried to find a spot to comment on the love of our animals, I wanted to respond to Claudia’s comment about petersen being a cop who beat his women, I think I should keep that in mind because when I see my little Herbie (my sheltie) I think of the many times my x path told me to “put a bullet in its head” because I could not get him house trained for a bit, my x path has three champion Golden Retreivers he uses to hunt with guess he paid thousands for them each, whatever…. So Claudia I will never underestimate the danger of a psychopath that is a law officer. Linda

  84. Linda,

    I wanted to address this specifically to you because we share the OW situation and that question, why didn’t he choose me?

    I was actually doing OK, until I saw your posts. I realize that because the dynamics with our ex”s is so similar, it’s very triggering. Please don’t misunderstand me when I say that. It’s a good thing, because it helps me to clarify what I’m feeling and with sharing with you about our experiences it helps me MORE to understand what I’m needing to recover from, as well as see the ridiculousness of what it looks like when you’re reading OTHERS posts, LOL! And it is, quite ridiculous.

    It also creates a situation to which I question WHY i’m triggered and then to think about it and examine if I really feel that way, or it is just an automatic response to a trigger. I’m probably not explaining this correctly or articulating this well, but anyway…..

    One of the things I’m seeing is that I kowtow a lot to what others think or I get defensive. These were my behaviors within the relationship. One of my healthier friends said to me, “Kelli, one day, you’ll just realize you don’t give a shit what anyone thinks or says about your or your situation”. I think she’s right. Here, I’m learning to be more self aware. Learning to speak up if I agree or don’t agree and working on that without flipping out, also another habitual response to my ex. A LOT of reacting. I’m solid on some of my opinions as others are here too about some things, and that’s okay. I don’t like anyone less or more because of it. It just is what it is.

    It feels safe to disagree and to agree and even to debate topics. I believe that’s healthy and that can be done when someone isn’t disordered.

    It could never happen with my ex. Ever. I also blog on another blog and have spent hours and hours reading story after story. No, not at LF either. they are so similar it’s uncanny. I’ve learned a lot about myself there too and it has actually created more strength within about my ex and what he was, what he is, what he will always be.

    No, LInda, he didn’t choose me. And ya know what? THANK GOD. really, that’s what I feel inside, THANK GOD. I made the list above thinking about what I feel now and am grateful for and appreciate rather than what he did to me, although I think about that too, but only for the sake of keeping cog/dis under control.

    I’ve had a few experiences this week outside of the virtual world that really speak to me about myself and where I’m really at, thus separating what I really feel, from the addiction to him. I’m asking what I want, not what he wants. I don’t give a shit, Linda, and that’s my bottom line. It isn’t just a lying, cheating, manipulating, disgusting douche bag, that I don’t want. He was SO boring. He couldn’t carry a conversation for long about any of the things i enjoyed let alone what he pretended too. The sex was awful (I can count the orgasms I had with him the entire ten years on one hand), it was always all about him. ALWAYS. He was the biggest, whiny cry baby on the planet, his stomach hurt, his migraines, oh oh oh…and really, even cooking around him was annoying. If I scraped a plate or a pan with a metal spoon, or a fork just to eat dinner, and I’m not kidding, he would put his hands to his ears and RUN from the room. LIke a three year old. If he was choking (he had no uvula- I was to blame for not knowing what that’s like-LOL), on something he was eating for dinner, he’d run to bathroom, exaggeratingly gagging and VOMITING then when I asked if he was ok, outside the bathroom door, it was more drama. It was seriously so exaggerated, I almost laughed, but didn’t dare. A paper cut to a knife cut was such a serious drama it required a 911 call. He was a horrible father, and overindulged his children with monetary shit, and was grooming his VERY P son, to be just like him. (Son had that empty cold stare **shudder**). It irritated the SHIT out of me. He never made him take responsibility for ANYTHING, including getting himself on a bus at school to get to choir on time. That sent ex to the principle’s office to bitch him out because THEY could not get HIS SON on the bus to choir…….he’s thirteen… time, when he asked me his opinion on a table cloth he bought for the table, I let him know i didn’t much care for it, and thought the wood underneath it was so pretty (and it was) that showing that off would be better. Remember, he asked. And like a little child, he brought this up when we were IMing “And YOU didn’t like the table cloth I bought!”

    Gag me.

    Anyway, I’ve already had an interesting thing start happening on the 24th of august. I got a phone call from a restricted number at seven in the morning. NEVER happens, unless it was from him. I didn’t think much of it, not MUCH, but it was there, just this knowing feeling and that time is when he would have just arrived at work. No message left. . As time has gone by since, this has increased in frequency, however it has changed to “unavailable” on my caller ID at odd hours. I blew that off too, but my feeling about it would NOT go away. So today, my son and I were out grocery shopping and ex would be just starting lunch at the time. I had had one of those calls last night, as well as this morning when it would have been his break time, the time he usually called me before during the day. So this time, I flippantly handed the phone to my son and said, “Would you please answer this, son?” And he goes, “is it the bastard again?” Something to that effect, anyway, he answered and as soon as he said hello, CLICK, …..

    I just had to know. And I think I do. I’m glad that happened and even if it WASN”T him, it reminded me how much I appreciate and covet my NC. How much I want this man to stay out of my life. I have taken extraordinary and drastic precautions so that he can know NOTHING of my life. I do not go out when he might be around town. I took down ALL my IM’s to which I would chat with friends and post daily status’s of mine, to which he could and did read daily. Even after deleting and blocking he could STILL see them. I don’t know how he did it, but at this point, it was an invasion of my coveted privacy and it was a main source of getting info on me. THose are gone. I completely disabled my FB too. I do not use an email he knows anymore. And after changing my phone number THREE times, I decided that FUCK HIM, I’m not changing it again. He is a coward, for all that means, but he’s also a psychopath, bored, no concept of time and well, you know, like nothing ever happened. The less I know, the more opportunity to heal, find myself, and without anymore major drama or disruptions to my life in being with my children, going to school, etc.

    I don’t want this man anymore. I could care less what he does. I have lots of healing to do, insofar as the things he has done to me and the damage in which he has caused. I still suffer with cog/dis but it’s becoming less frequent and thanks for your posts Linda, I’m monitoring well now, my triggers. I’m able to speak about them, without fear or reprisal and with confidence. If someone doesn’t like it, well too bad 🙂 As long as it’s done respectfully, and that I no longer need to react the way I reacted to him, within the confines of a pathological relationship. I’m not instantly better and far from it, but my NC of nine months now feels more celebratory than misery. Kelli

  85. Kelli, your state of mind has improved so much, it’s incredible. You’re seeing the addiction to that psychopath for what it was–an addiction to a horrible and boring human being–and the stalking behavior for an annoying pest with no self-respect. Because if these psychopaths had any pride whatsoever, they’d take rejection and move on, not stalk former partners who don’t want them. You’ve gotten to the healthy point where you’re reducing him to the insignificance he represents. Psychopaths are trivial human beings. That’s the bottom line. The more we heal from those toxic relationships, the clearer we see this fundamental truth. Claudia

  86. Michael and all – I totally agree, a counselor that SPECIALIZES in this disorder, Phd, what have you, could not agree more. My counselor had a Phd in psychology and he was very educated on Cluster B; however as I read others experiences with counseling I dont believe he had a very good plan for my therapy. I am not sure which approach he was trying to use with me but he DID NOT address my PTSD very well or my horrible anxiety I was going through. However I have to say every time I left his office I would leave SCARED TO DEATH of what I had become involved with. He was quite explicit and very direct in telling me this man is DANGEROUS Linda, you are playing a game with an extremely dangerous dangerous person that has been trained in the field of law enforcement plus his psychopathic behaviors as well as an extremely smart sexual predator. I once asked him, Do you think he has killed anyone, and he said in the line of duty or otherwise? I said otherwise … his response was, I am not sure but its possible. He believed he has raped women, and possibly young men nothing was out of the realm of possibility with this man. I would start to shake in his office. Here is a brief list of questions I asked my counselor in the year I saw him and these were his responses, I remember them so clearly:

    1- Did this man ever at one time love me? NO, NEVER he never even LIKED you

    2- Does he feel ANYTHING for his GF – NO NOTHING, he cant stand her half of the time, she is nothing but a maintenance chore for him.

    3- Why does he keep her if she is such a pain in the ass then?
    So when he goes to functions he doesnt look like he is an odd ball, for appearance sake only, someone to take the policemens ball she could be his beard, I am not sure. He only has a GF to HIDE his sexual predation so he looks like a swell guy who is a pillar to the community. I thought it was cute when my counselor said when he is on duty he is not parolling, he is prowling

    4- Does he have a hidden life?

    He has MANY MANY hidden lives!!!

    5- Did he love or care for his parents – NO, was happy when they passed away so he no longer had to care for them

    6- Does he ever miss me and looks forward to at least being with me intimately? NO, you were like changing the oil in his car (maintenance) on a 1-10 scale he looked forward to seeing you on about a minus one level, he was only conditioning you and pretending to love you to be his sex slave. You did not deliver to him what he has demanded from you; therefore you are of very little meaning or supply to him and he would love to physically hurt you if he could get away with it, he would like to beat you to obedience.

    7- Does he find me attractive ? Sure you are a beautiful woman, but that is not on the list of his priorities, he did not choose you for your beauty or class. He cares NOTHING of those things that was just an added bonus for him.- He does not compare your beauty with his GF’s beauty its all the same to him.

    8- Is this man mentally ILL? NO, but he is HIGHLY DISTURBED!

    So Michael the list goes on and on ….. Thought you would be interested though being a counselor yourself in what MY counselors responses were. Maybe you could tell me what the difference is from mentally ill, and highly disturbed? In either case its NOT a good diagnosis with NO prognosis! . My counselor gave me the bitter facts and behaviors of this disorder Its no wonder Michael as you so well stated that EVERYTHING we ever believed in was totally violated and rejected BUT ….. by a Psychopath and I think we REALLY need to keep that in our thoughts at all times – normal individuals dont have hidden lives, healthy minded individuals dont view others as supply to feed their sexual perversions or what have you. Linda

  87. Hi Kelli: I am so pleased that our experiences have truly helped each other. I am sorry at times if I triggered some painful issues you have had to work through, but they say the best way to overcome issues is to walk through them not around them.

    The most difficult part of this awful experience for me has been the OTHER WOMAN, it has almost driven me to insanity!!!! The second hardest obstacle for me to overcome was the utter degrading this man did to me. I can think of one conversation in where he said, ” I will call you in a few days to get my dick hard, you seem to do that very well when I hear your voice” But lets put 2 and 2 together here how else am I going to be viewed by a “sexual predator”? Is he going to love MY MIND, my kindness, my talents? No, he is going to only recognize my body parts. Oh and by the way just so you know, I NEVER had an orgasm with mine, NOT ONE and I always wanted to tell him that – but oh well he wouldnt have cared anyway, ha ha

    I was once asked by my counselor if this man offered you a life with him, leave your husband and move in would you REALLY do it Linda? I was silent and thought long and hard (this was during the illusion stage) and he said, I DONT THINK YOU WOULD!! He is right, I would have said NO knowing what he is no amount of money or the beautiful home he would have offered me would have swayed me to be with such a person. I also could never have deep meaningful conversations with him he was always bragging about something, or wining about this or that, or talking bad about someone or trying to show off his worldly knowledge on all matters. He was arrogant, selfish, self centered, rude, and the whole world revolved around him. I remember spending two days at his home or I should say BED, and the bastard never even offered me ANYTHING to eat, (he took me to perkins) oh sorry I take that back he DID bring me a glass of water. Sometimes I think the illusion gets the best of us, we imagine this whole wonderful life with this person that seemed so exciting; he was extremely handsome, charming, smart, successful, funny, he SEEMED to be all that but as I look closer he was really none of those things. He is not so handsome to me anymore (because he is so UGLY inside) he is not so charming because it was all smooth talk of a pimp, smart? NO, what he does is STUPID, successful? That depends on what your idea of success is – Funny? Sure at MY expense. He had the gift of gab like nothing I have ever seen but it was all LIES, everything he said was a total LIE just to impress others. So Kelli mine didnt choose me either and even though I also have some deep wounds of betrayal to overcome I am grateful as hell I was not the chosen one and do you know why? The main reason why: Because he is a TOTAL FRAUD, there is nothing REAL about HIM, NOTHING!!!! sure his house is real, his money is real, his expensive toys are real; there would never be any REAL exchange of love on HIS part, there would be no REAL bonding with this person. If I would have grown old with this person it would have been nothing but a house of mirrors in that mansion of his and I dont mean the mirrors that hang on the wall. He is an emotionally stunted child living in a grown mans body. He is self fulfilling, self masturbating and self absorbed in his own sick, twisted perverse life. He predates and uses good human beings to feed his disorder because he will never know that it is the human heart that connects us to others and gives us the REAL joys of every day living. They will never be fully human as we are Kelli. You have helped me also to RELEASE this man, this man who came into my life and showed me what I once believed was the IDEAL RELATIONSHIP that I could only dream about. But, it was just that, it was nothing but a dream, something that could never come true because he was never REAL and he never will be

    Thank you Kelli for helping me wake up. x0x0 Linda


  88. All – Same with mine, CONSTANTLY working on the house and yard, Linda

  89. Michael

    You describe the experience so completely. Reading your words have been very helpful for me. I am amazed how my own experience aligns with what you describe


  90. Linda,

    I’d like to take the time to reflect on your post for awhile. It’s overwhelming when there is a connection on this level insofar as being the OW. I’ve NEVER gone this deep into it with anyone anywhere on another blog, but only in private with those I’m very close too. You’ve helped me tremendously too. I think it is safe to say that we are helping one another release what was once the illusion for what IS the undeniable reality. HUGS. Kelli

  91. Linda, your therapist was great because he was brutally HONEST with you! He put holes in the idealization phase, to deflate it in your own mind, and see it and the psychopath for what they were. In many respects, you lucked out on this therapist because what every victim needs at first is a reality check and information about psychopaths and how they think. The nuances of therapy and looking into the reasons why we chose such slimy characters (or were targeted by them) come afterwards… Claudia

  92. Linda,

    In Sandra Brown’s book, she is often asked, how can you spot the psychopath so quickly? Simple: Normal men do not want to destroy women. Kelli

  93. Linda, if you had moved in with the psychopath, he wouldn’t even want sex with you anymore. Because psychopaths get bored so quickly with everything once you’re under their control, on their turf. If you read Women Who Love Psychopaths or any testimonials by victims who did move in with the psychopaths, they all state that their deviant partners got bored with regular sex and demanded more and more perverse acts from them. Your ex already began to lead you on that road; thank goodness you refused and escaped. Claudia

  94. Claudia,

    Sometimes they DON”T require more devious acts after you move in and he’s bored. Sometimes they WITHHOLD. You’d be surprised how many have madonna/whore complex! Withholding is just as damaging as deviant sexual acts on the increase, Kel

  95. Kelli, you’re right. Either way, it’s all about them and all about having power over you (either by pushing you to excess and degrading you or by withholding sex and affection from you, so you feel unwanted and grovel). Claudia

  96. Kelli and All: I believe Kelli what was exchanged between us was something paramount to our recovery; It is SO SO true that NOBODY knows what we have endured but only those that have walked in our shoes. I have three life long friends who would have NEVER understood the experience I encountered with this path in the manner in which we worked through together. Unless you have actually lived through the experience of the pathological illusion and the bond others simply will not understand why our recovery is so slow and long and so very very painful. We really know very little about each other aside from the fact we love animals; but what I do know is that you are fundamentally a good person that had the misfortune of encountering a psychopath in your life and I have connected with you and the others on this site to KNOW I am NOT ALONE in this trauma that changed my life.

    I ask myself today and I ask YOU and others; How do you feel now that the illusion and psychopathic bond is no longer in our lives? I feel a TREMENDOUS sadness, but I feel mentally healthy again!!! I no longer need to figure out his behavior, I no longer view myself in the manner HE did, I no longer care who is PRETENDING to love and be with. Do I NOW go through the process of mourning the “Ideal relationship”? as I realize he was NEVER for one second a part of it? He is living HIS life and not giving a moments thought to me, he played the part very well for me knowing full well what my dreams were and what I wanted but being a psychopath he never had the capacity to ever make make it come true. He will never be capable of giving anyone love and a healthy relationship. I have never fallen so hard in my life; from what was once euphoria to a bitter, cold reality of complete isolation and aloneness. What are my choices here to pick up the phone or answer his calls and hear him tell me how my body parts turn him on or to pick up MY LIFE and start building my own dreams that are healthy and REAL. I am so wounded from this experience and I am not feeling sorry for myself – that is just a fact there is ALWAYS damage after a pathological relationship. Yes I think I have read that before what Sandra Brown stated; How can you tell? Because normal and healthy men do not set out to destroy women. I have never had the experience of another human being try to destroy me for absolutely no justification what so ever, but this is what paths do. The illusion has finally been replaced by a bad disordered masked man Linda

  97. Claudia: How True indeed!!! I was in close touch with a gal (the one who moved far away I told you about) who shared all that with me she told me their sex life was HORRIBLE, once a month if that. When they DID have sex he would say, Ok baby do your thing and he would just lay there as she gave him oral pleasure and he DID NOTHING!!!!! THat was the extent she said most of the time how their sex life was; meanwhile she had a key logger on his pc and was tracking all these adult dating sites he frequented telling women he was single and available and looking for long term relationship with possible marriage in the future. He would be on porn sites for two and three hours every night as she waited for him in bed; one time she walked in on him wondering what in the world he was doing and there he was Claudia on some porn site with a woman standing in front of the monitor with his pants down saying: “oh baby I know you want this dont you and jacking off” She ran into the bathroom and threw up!!! He never asked her to do sexual deviated things though he kept her out of that life he probably was one that viewed her as the madonna. As my psychiatrist once told me: he does not want his GF for sex that is NOT her purpose for him she is just more of a companion to him. I guess some request these things of their partners and some leave them totally out, he might have tried in the beginning though with her and she refused so he put her in the madonna role. But you are right Claudia if I would have lived with him he would have withheld sex from me all the time – I am sure I would have heard things like; well if you would share couple sex with me maybe our sex life would be better and we would have sex more often. It could be his poor GF has to join him with other couples in order to stay with him if that is the case she just sold her soul to the devil, gee that is living proff it never kept him faithful to her isnt it? Its never enough for these sexual addict predators he still goes behind her back and pursues others as he did with me. DAMN Claudia, why wasnt I THE CHOSEN ONE? ha ha ha If this is what his GF has and does that I never would that is probably why he stays with her, he has found himself someone that he brainwashed and trained into believing SHE is special, SHE is his match, and may God help her!!!!! Linda

  98. Linda, one can feel nothing but pity for the women who get dragged down by the sexual perversion of psychopaths. Claudia

  99. Linda,

    I really liked what your therapist had to say! WOW! That was validating for me! I just WISH I could find a therapist who lets me ask questions, talk about the experience and VALIDATE it.


  100. Linda,

    Of all the voices here, yours has been the most comforting. It is very validating when you’ve been the OW in the situation to be able to understand one another on this level. It has helped me soooo much! I see who he is. He’s also pretty bored right now LOL! I read something on another site about quicky marriages to a psychopath. Fast start, will be a FAST ending. I could not imagine marrying a man I barely knew. But a psychopath is just that good. If I had married this man at the time I had met him and he swept me off my feet, I would have been in VERY big trouble not too long in. There is no way that red flags are not waving for her in the wind right now, no matter how good he thinks he is at it, just his morphed religious and political affiliation is nothing he could stick too. IN fact, Linda, it is SO BRUTALLY funny! My ex was a Nazarene, bible thumping go to church every sunday and wednesday, play in the church band, sit on the church board and now he’s CATHOLIC? ROFLOL!!!! I was raised Catholic and we had a few brief discussions about it. Somehow seeing him even TOUCH holy water, or making the sign of the cross and going for communion during mass, is enough to make me laugh so hard and not stop! I could easily see, when he found out she was catholic, that he would have gone out and bought the book “Catholic for dummies” ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE HATED CATHOLICISM. Considered it cultish LOL!!!!

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh my and democrat? Giving to numerous charities? ALL WITH HER MONEY!!! OMG! it’s just a stinkin riot, but it just goes to show how RIDICULOUS they really are. I like what your therapist said about your ex’s gf too. Soooooo true, but when it’s said that they use the main source for “companionship” that is so OFF of what it really is!! Who would WANT to be a psychopaths companion and what does that word really mean? Well, to a psychopath, it’s COMPLETELY different than it is to us. It’s WINDOW dressing. That’s ALL. I completely agree with your therapist.

    One of the things that comes to mind, Linda, is how denial is so prevalent when living with one of these people. There is no way the mask isn’t slipping prior to marriage or cohabitating, we’re just missing the red flags, but they grow bigger over time. I think one of the things that makes the psychopaths mask slip is that he has to be “nice” to whomever he’s lured. They HATE being nice, because that goes against their My DESTRUCTIVE nature. Being NICE doesn’t mean you CHEAT on your partner as if it’s no big deal! My ex is bored and he’s probably tired of being nice LOL!!! He was so mean, that I can’t see it lasting long before the mask slips.

    I really was a great poison container!!! I think one of the reasons psychopaths stalk more some women than others, at least ONE of the possible reasons, is because that person was an excellent poison container. And boy was I ever. Meaning he could dump several loads a day and like a trash compactor, I ate that shit up. What he couldn’t dump at home (but he did anyway) I got it twice as bad. So if my ex is a bit bored right now, and calling my phone, well……’s because he arrogantly and MISTAKENLY believes that I would GROVEL to be his poison container again. HELL-NO! It probably frustrates the SHIT out of him that I am COMPLETELY inaccessible. That”s how bored he gets. These people are so evil that sometimes women have been known to know DAYS in advance of a potential hoover maneuver. I had a feeling before the first call, that something was coming. I can’t explain that, but it’s an energy that is strongly negative that feels like a dark cloud hanging over your head. Since my son answered the phone yesterday and this “person” hung up, I’ve not received anymore calls. Hopefully that will do it. But I’m never sure. And THAT does bother me. My birthday is coming up and psychopaths are infamous for contacting during holidays and birthdays. INFAMOUS. which of course, is why I got the mother’s day ecards. I told him to NEVER contact me again. NEVER to a psychopath is like putting cheese in front of a mouse UGH! I’m very very introspective right now. I’m seeing things I didn’t see before, not just about him, but about me too. Mourning the emotional neglect that my children dealt with because of these abusive relationships. .I had a huge talk with my daughter this morning and it was very emotional and painful and dealt with my youngest son who is severely drug addicted, abusive and violent, as well as the rest of my children and their perspectives. She’s the eldest of my children and because they are all very very close, she hears it from all angles, their perceptions. I take responsibility and am deeply grieving the many insurmountable losses I created for my children while in pathology land. My children and I are rebuilding our relationships. We are really weird for as close as we are. But this brings me AND Them so much joy. When there is no toxicity, we are free to be happy together and enjoy each other’s company. I wouldn’t give that up for a man EVER EVER again and certainly not a psychopath,. Yep, myself, my kids and the wiener, well we’re a packaged deal. And for all we have been through I couldn’t be more proud. Kel

  101. Very wonderful last sentence!!!! (Linda!)

    For me the hurt and grief did die, as you said, when you finally replace the illusion with the facts. Then for awhile I was into revenge thoughts, and “life isn’t fair” thoughts. Finally, I realized while I was finally free of the psychopath’s hell, there is no escape for the psychopath. That feeling of emptiness will never leave them for long. The feelings of envy will always eat at them.The constant drive and battle to be in control of others is always there. The need to manipulate is always there. I think the constant overdrive of so-called high functioning p’s, ages them enormously. And the things that make life wonderful, they will NEVER experience. Love. Giving. True joy. Complete trust in someone. The delight a child’s laugh can bring. Even the loving bond with an animal.

    The p I was involved with could not stand be alone or inactive. It was unbearable to him, and wine and pornography were his means to escape when forced to be alone. He once said “back to the emptiness I call home”. And I am positive he really meant it, as many of his actions and words supported that, plus he always had a kind of different voice when he actually told the truth. His multi-million dollar home was meaningless to him…there were plenty of his neighbors with bigger and better homes.

    So eventually you get to the point that (were it not for the damage they cause) you could almost feel pity for them, and you realize that you are so MUCH STRONGER than you were before. You know now that there are people out there who just want to hurt you and use you, who will pretend the opposite. And you have strengthened your inner core so that your values are in tact and so are your ethics. You know who you are and exactly what your boundaries are. You realize it is vital to speak your truth, no matter the reaction of the other person. No matter their position, their power, their wealth, their relationship, or the consequences of speaking the truth. No one can easlily exploit you again.

  102. And Kelli, just saw your post, another strong ending! Woohoo! You two are rockin’!

  103. Susan,

    Thank you so much! Coming from you, I feel honored! Kel

  104. Oh Susan: How beautifully stated, I cried as I read your last paragraphs knowing the pain it took for me (and others) to reach that strength. I went out yesterday and bought this song and blasted it, seems the song for me captures the complete cycle of the illusion I shared with this man. No he will never love me tomorrow, nor does he love me currently, nor did he ever love me yesterday. I felt like the woman in this video laying on the street naked alone and rejected; for awhile during the process of releasing the illusion I felt this way BUT NOT TODAY, I dont ever want to be with someone who could never love me tomorrow with only a false promise of what he appeared to me today as. I have learned to do all those things especially speak my truth no matter the reaction of the other person. Nobody ever again will be able to exploit my life for their sick convictions. x0x0 Linda

  105. A gift for you Kelli –

  106. Linda, thank you. I love the Little River Band. That song is so fitting and appropriate. BIG HUGS! Kel

  107. Kelli, Susan and all – I wanted to share what the “enemy” has given me (besides destruction and pain)

    1. Seems I can separate the “assholes” from the good within about 5 minutes after a conversation. OMG I have truly discovered the people in my life that I ONCE viewed as Ok, are NOT that OK now. I need to learn to accept them as they are I try to still treat them with respect as long as they return that same respect.

    2. I have a deep deep appreciation for the things I once took for granted in my life. I dont think any of us should ever ever ever dismiss that we are lucky to be ALIVE and that the path that was in our lives didnt leave us for dead; even though its the MINORITY of paths that kill we were on dangerous grounds when we entered a paths world – Our beliefs were killed but we were not PHYSICALLY killed – Many BLACK WIDOWS out there Michael – Be glad she didnt poison your food!!!!

    3. I have gained wisdom beyond what I ever imagined. My father was my HERO and I always admired his wisdom and wish I had it, well NOW I DO Although he never acquired his wisdom from an experience such as this he was a wise man from his personal life experiences, having survived WWII those that lived in that era truly knew hardships.

    4. I talk to young people who are full of hope, who are “IN LOVE” and I always try to remind them Love is not a fairytale you grew up reading, its NOT the movies you see on tv, love and relationships that are healthy is the ability to grow together, change together and the ability to remember most of the time its better to be just happy than always right. Strange that I have learned SO MUCH about love from a man than never had the capacity to give me love and I think that is because I ALWAYS loved myself MORE to never give into some sick beliefs and convictions of a social predator; he was never able to take me down that perverted path and no matter how much in the illusion I THOUGHT I loved him I loved myself more than to allow another human being to TOTALLY destroy me. So that has always been the truth YOU MUST LOVE YOURSELF and KNOW THYSELF!!!!

    5. I can stomp out garden variety abusers like DIRT!! I usually walk away or put my hand up because any interaction to justify yourself to an abuser is futile because that is what they want, they WANT you to question yourself and I WONT DO IT, even if I am wrong it gives NO REASON for anyone to abuse me verbally or otherwise. You DONT abuse others because they are wrong or make mistakes. I have learned to see these behaviors in my husband, there are no more little toys in his bag of tricks, he has run out. If he wants to pull out his own insecurities than he can project them on to someone else, that is not MY PROBLEM, its HIS.

    6. Last but not least I am learning that I AM OK, with all my faults and shortcomings I am basically a good person who has just had some bad luck in my life; the neglect and abuse of my husband lead me into the arms of even a WORSE abuser – the worst human predator that walks the planet in my estimation. Maybe it took this type of abuse to shake me to the core and make me say, ENOUGH you never deserved this – its high time you take a good look at yourself and SEE your true value and worth and for the first time I am starting to see it, the x path saw it or he wouldnt have tried to destroy it, its high time I live my life seeing and believing it.

    So….. yes the enemy left me with great pain also but in the end its the value and belief we have in ourselves that will save us and heal that pain. Linda

  108. Linda, you wouldn’t have gotten all this wisdom without going through the pain and suffering the psychopath caused you. It’s not a reason to thank him–of course!–but it’s a reason to be very proud of your own strength, which was tested by this very unpleasant episode. Claudia

  109. Kelli: What is your wieners name?

    You spoke of how bored they get; I also have changed my number TWICE because of this bastard and I am NOT doing it again; makes no difference to me if he calls or NEVER calls me again – but wait he will call me when the GF is running errands and he is laying in bed playing with his weiner and wants to get off by hearing my voice. But guess what? There will be no answer or reply the source to feed his sickness has left. I believe that is why people in the movie industry self destruct, let that be an example of no matter how much wealth someone has you can never never BUY what is missing within yourself all the condos, fancy homes and toys that you buy can NEVER prevent you from a path that will lead you to self destruction. He can BUY his sexual fantasies and sex addictions but like any drug it will never cure what the REAL problem is.

    Was I the poison container as well for him? Maybe so, did I give him what his GF didnt in that respect? mmmm for awhile but pretty soon he would want someone else to give him what he craves for they have many people that are their poison containers kelli. They will ALWAYS have numerous side relationships during the course of their life, there is NEVER one person or object that is enough for them. I think its important for us to never think we werent the chosen one but to think as we release them we have left them to live their lives with MANY other chosen ones that just play different roles in their lives. I often think how would I have liked to been the GF role on vacation with him as he was calling other women behind her back to touch base with them telling them I will be home in a few days and will call you then? As he did with me? What the hell kind of vacation is that to spend with someone? Like we both have expressed its just maintenance as they do with ALL their relationships. She is probably THRILLED to spend alone time with him for a few days and he plays into the romantic illusion for her and dont think for a minute your x doesnt have others besides his rich new love.

    I have spent the past two years it seems mourning what I believed was the perfect companion for me, with so many self doubts and questions, comparing myself to who he chose – F— that they can sail into the sunset together for all I care she has NOTHING that I dont have or he would not have pursued me as he did for almost 5 years and the more he tried to destroy me, the more I realized what good qualities I actually do have that he saw, I JUST NEEDED TO SEE THEM, and I finally have!!!! We are all gems or none of us would have been the target of these monsters dont ever forget that.

    I am glad you like Little River Band, from the pits and debts of hell we swam our way to the surface and found the light just as those beautiful creatures in the video, the whale is flapping his fins yahoo I am FREE at last, those they are with are still in bondage. x0 Linda

  110. Linda,

    I’m SO encouraged by what appears to be an uplift in your spirit! YAY!

    I’m bothered by the phone calls. Only because I can’t be certain. It happened again this morning. Then I decided while cleaning my house and having my boys around, that I don’t CARE. I’m not GOING to answer the phone. It is MY CHOICE. Part of having been such a great poison container, and with as long as the relationship lasted (ten years+2 “friendship”) is that he is NOT likely to find another who would last that long or take as much shit as I did. WOAH! Not something to be proud of, I know. He was “invested” alright…… counting on ME to dump his shit on, day after day. Linda, he loved my groveling, begging and pain. THAT makes me so damned mad!!! I do feel angry and that anger only fuels my NC. Before I’d be SURE to call him and bitch him out. Mine was weird, he loved standing there or on the phone while I YELLED AND SCREAMED or blew up his phone in frustration. It was like dealing with a bully in the school yard who would come push you down, then RUN and you never knew when they were going to come back or do it again. That is EXACTLY what he did to me. I’m sure he misses me screaming at him LOL! He has to be “nice” to her and I’m sure he’s getting quite sick of it now. Well too effing bad!!!! As we all know the last thing psychopaths enjoy is being NICE to someone. And how they manifest their destructive tendencies could well be in a form that she doesn’t know about, lying, cheating, manipulating and she’s believing that she’s got herself a real NICE GUY! I could think of ten million deviant reasons that he’s doing this. NONE of them are what I would USE to think, “oh he misses me”, “oh maybe he realized he made a mistake” GAG!!! I STOPPED projecting what would be MY normal feelings of love and care onto HIM. THAT is NOT how he thinks!!! And boy has it made a world of difference. I’m not going to change my number either. He would KNOW why I did it and it would give him the satisfaction of knowing he has somehow upset me. Nope, it’s bigger just to IGNORE his ass! Eventually, when I won’t answer, nor grovel, he’ll go away. I hope. LOL!

    Linda, I live in this beautiful area. I don’t like the complex I live in so much, but I appreciate it more now, because it’s down in the middle of a forested area. You have to drive DOWN a huge hill to get into it. I feel SAFE here. I’m sitting here on my back porch writing this out to you and the air is light, hot and breezy. I can see all the beauty around me and I LOVE taking my breaks to write out here. I’ve been spring cleaning like crazy, decided that if I’m going to be here a year, I’m going to put up some curtains and put a few things maybe from Goodwill here and there and make it as comfortable as I can. I really wanted to move and I still do, but I think God is teaching me some very valuable lessons about not running away…..and I feel his protection over my life. Everyday I pray, before i go anywhere that He is looking out for me, and that I WON”T run into Mr. Wonderful. The time will probably come when I do, but I take extra precautions, even having to spend extra money that I don’t have, just to stay out of the way to give myself time to heal. My faith is increasing. I’ve finally been able to read some passages out of my new bible. Ex was a licensed pastor and I told you all the rest about the image he held up as “christian”. Anyway, I talk too much LOL! I am learning to enjoy the most simple things in my life. There are things that hurt, such as what is going on with my son, but other than that, my family is healing.

    My wiener’s name is Hercules. He’s almost seven now. He has a spiked collar and a favorite sweater that the kids bought for me to put on for him in the winter time that says “I love Grandma” LOL! I love football, and there is a college team in particular to which I am an ardent fan. So next on the list? College t-shirt for him 🙂 He has hoodies (hilarious) and hats and such. Yes, I dress my dog! I love playing dress up with him. It’s disgusting, I know. LOL! He is loved by all the neighbors. But he’s my best best best friend in the whole world. I love him so much, I don’t know what I will do when it comes time to put him down. I try not to think about it too much, but he’s like my companion, ya know? My ex hated my dog. That use to hurt me unbelievably. And now, I never have to worry about whether or not my dog is going to be kicked out of the way anymore. He sleeps with me at night, usually, he’ll go to the bottom of my bed and lick my feet until he gets tired and goes to sleep, but lately, he’s been wanting to sleep right next to me, on the pillow next to mine. So we cuddle. I believe pets have souls. I really do. He has the best soul ever. there isn’t anything I won’t do to keep him alive a little longer as long as he is comfortable. Part of the grieving and fear I feel when he gets sick with his back stuff is that since I’ve had him, it’s like he’s been through all of this with me. Apart of me will no longer exist and will go with him when he dies. My heart aches and aches and aches when he’s sick and I can’t help but cry a lot. But he’s been worth every dime spent, every minute, even the annoying things he does, LOL….

    talking too much……

    Maybe I’ll post a pic of him.

    Linda, I have felt especially connected to you here and I’m so very glad you’re apart of this blog. You have helped me so much in my healing efforts. I appreciate it more than you will ever know and more than I can ever say….Kel

  111. Linda,

    This is really beautiful! Kel

  112. Kelli, You have the right attitude now. I think the psychopathic ex is harassing you because you’re not groveling back, and he wants to maintain control over you. He’s used to it for 10 years. As Sandra Brown draws a distinction: psychopaths DON’T emotionally bond with others, but the DO attach (like leeches) and find it very difficult to detach from their dominance bonds, both past and present. I also believe animals do have souls, usually better and kinder ones than most people do. As you requested, I sent Linda a picture of Hercules by email. Claudia

  113. Claudia

    RE: Your above post:

    I don’t get that. The “dominance” bond is OVER. He’s got enough power and control with new rich wife and all the investments he’s making now with her money. I cut off ALL contact with him or any way for him to reach me, except I refused to change my number again after doing it three times. I’m so sick of him, Claudia, I feel like puking. He has no reason to try to hurt me anymore. NONE. It pisses me off that he might think he could STILL try to ruin my newfound happiness. Bastard. I’m sorry, but this makes me SO angry. Why not just leave me the hell alone? It’s been over nine months now. It’s done it’s LONG over, he’s remarried, got lots of money and tons of triangulations he can work up. I don’t want anything to do with him at all. And I will KEEP IGNORING those calls! I’m determined that he’s NOT going to disrupt MY life. kel

  114. Kelli, the dominance bond for you is over because you never had one! For psychopaths their main dominance bonds are never over (or at least rarely over) because they always want power over their targets: past, present and future. Whenever you try to project your perspectives or beliefs or feelings upon a psychopath you won’t get an accurate image. Only if you accept as a premise their worldview, which is about control and harm, can you understand why this loser, who already has a life with a new wife, would still continue to harass you (and maybe other women too). He doesn’t want you to move on. He doesn’t want you to succeed in life. He doesn’t want you to be happy. He wants to have you at his beck and call, as a backup. In remaining NC and growing stronger and more successful each day, you block all of his malicious intentions. Claudia

  115. Kelli, regarding those irritating phone calls from your harassing ex, up here in the Great White North our phone company has a Call Privacy package for $9/month. It blocks all calls from restricted and unknown numbers, and also lets you set up a blacklist of up to 12 numbers (home, office, cell, etc.) that are immediately routed to a prerecorded message and cannot leave voicemail. You can even record your own (suitably nasty) message so that he gets a nice dose of your displeasure each time he does attempt to call. Followed by an extra heaping of frustration when he realizes that he can’t even leave a message. That should straighten him our pretty quickly.

    For legitimate restricted numbers (e.g. hospitals, doctors’ offices) you can set up a passcode for them to be able to bypass the block. Perhaps this is something you might want to inquire about with your phone company? It almost sounds like fun. – Julian.

  116. Kelli, Claudia is absolutely right (of course!). My ex-girl-fiend maintained her dominance over her ex-husband throughout our entire 18-month relationship, making many deliberate attempts to slow down the divorce proceedings and refusing multiple settlement offers. At the time, it baffled me why she didn’t want to just get the whole mess over with (especially as she had so many opportunities to do so), but that’s what the psychopath’s whole dominance-bond thing is about. They get a kick out of dominating and controlling people and pushing their buttons; they actually enjoy it.

    Just to stress how sick the dominance bond is, her marriage lasted only six months and the divorce took at least two years. Maybe more, as I really don’t know if it’s over and no longer care. – Julian.

  117. Julian,

    I LOVE it, however, I only use a cellphone and NOT a land line. My cellphone company doesn’t offer those services unfortunately, but they WILL change my number FOR FIFTEEN DOLLARS! UGH!

    You must be in Canada. Not terribly far from me. Not only is their medical care better, but so is their phone service apparently LOL!

    Thanks Julian

  118. Linda, although I’ve been out and about all day, I’ve been watching the posts here on my phone. This was the very best! Your words about your father really resonated with me, as he also was a World War II survivor and his parents disappeared when he was 10 years old and were never seen or heard from again. I’ve often wondered how he acquired so much wisdom without the benefit of parents to raise him. Although he passed away three years ago, I think of him almost daily, and when faced with a difficult situation, I often wonder what he would have done.

    Your comments about appreciating things once taken for granted also struck a chord with me. Once the mental clouds started clearing, I realized that my garden (full of perennials) had sprung back to life of its own accord, and was beckoning me to weed it. I fondly recall those early mornings a few weeks ago when I’d spend a peaceful hour or so watering it and pulling weeds. I found it very calming and therapeutic – somehow, I found myself entirely focused on the task at hand with no more thoughts swirling around in my head.

    I’m so happy to hear that you’re doing well! – Julian.

  119. Julian,

    WOW! Only six months marriage to two years to divorce? LOL! Typical psychopath maneuvers!

    I get the dominance bond stuff, but I don’t get it when it comes to my ex. we have no children, never lived together. There is NOTHING to “dominate”. I really didn’t think too much of it, until the calls increased over the last week or so, then when my son answered and they hung up….well, I don’t know who else would have done it, Julian. My phone has been BLISSFULLY silent now for months, other than my family and friends, doctors offices, etc. But I know all the numbers, as they show up when they call. Kel

  120. Claudia,

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh you’re right about the projection of normality onto him. I’m sorry but this one I just don’t get. when it’s over, it’s OVER. He’s married, has money blah blah blah.. He didn’t say anything when my son picked up. Just hung up. Probably wouldn’t if I answered and there’s no way in hell I’m going too. What you say makes sense though Claudia, I just don’t get how he can leave some behind, but not others. Kel

  121. Oh, crap! Yes, I’m in Canada, the birthplace of telephony (although born in Scotland, Alexander Graham Bell lived much of his life in Canada).

    Does your cell phone support per-caller ringtones? You might want to download something appropriate (say, a clip from a Tom Waits song) and assign it to all his numbers plus “restricted/unknown.” Or maybe a recorded patch of silence might be even better – you won’t hear anything at all when he calls.

    Good luck! – Julian.

  122. Julian,

    I just don’t know how you dealt with that. What a nightmare drama to be apart of! Kel

  123. Julian,

    Good idea with the ringtones. I’ll see if I can do it. I can see the calls as they come in and don’;t need to worry about answering if I don’t want too. Kel

  124. Kelli, you were a ten year investment (of toxic energy and time) for him. He’s not going to let you escape that easily from his clutches. Claudia

  125. Julian, they drag it out, to get every last drop of emotional energy from their ex’s and, if there are children involved, use them as hooks or weapons against their ex’s. Claudia

  126. Kelli, the fact that he’s set himself up so well, and that you’ve never had children or lived together – they’re all irrelevant to his dominance bond. Think like him – the most important and satisfying things to him are power and control over others, and being able to do harm to them and watch them squirm as a result. You’re still “accessible” (to some degree) and therefore a target for his dominance urges.

    I saw this so, so clearly in my ex towards the end of our relationship. Early one morning a bailiff arrived and handed her an envelope containing her ex’s latest divorce settlement offer. She glanced at it and tossed it on the table. I picked it up and saw that he was offering an attractive sum that well exceeded her (now enormous) legal expenses in return for an annulment instead of a divorce.

    So I asked her if she was going to accept it. She looked at me with pure malice in her eyes and said, “No. I have something he wants (her agreement to the annulment) and I’m going to make him pay for it.”

    Kelli, this is what psychopaths are all about. They take a sick glee in causing pain and distress to others. That’s all that’s important to them; nothing else really matters (no matter what you or I might think!).

    You seem to be taking a very rational approach to this, figuring that he no longer has any reason to harass you. Kelli, you’re dead wrong on this point; he has MANY reasons to harass you and all of them are very, very sick. Try to think like him, and I believe you’ll get over this one. – Julian.

  127. Claudia, you wrote “…they drag it out, to get every last drop of emotional energy from their ex’s and, if there are children involved, use them as hooks or weapons against their ex’s.”

    Well said. I’d just like to add that they use stolen pets also. I’m still a bit unnerved about her commandeering my precious Persian cat. – Julian.

  128. Kelli, you wrote “I just don’t know how you dealt with that (her divorce spanning our entire relationship). What a nightmare drama to be apart of!”

    Actually, it wasn’t a nightmare at all. I loved her, and therefore I supported her through her difficulties. Our relationship was mostly very good, although she had her occasional outbursts of rage over what I thought were insignificant things. It’s so easy to justify those episodes away when you love someone.

    In New Jersey, there’s a divorce process that must be followed, initial filings, separate mediation, joint mediation, depositions, hearings, finally a court case… always at least 30 days between each phase, and often lengthy additional delays due to vacations or one of the lawyers giving birth to a child (yes, that happened).

    If your goal is to cause as much pain and distress as you can, it’s really easy to use the system for your own nefarious purposes.

    At first, I didn’t see anything unusual at all. But after she refused a couple of reasonable settlement offers, I began to get worried. Then I realized that her weird outbursts of rage at me coincided exactly with the times that she was required to provide truthful information under oath to mediators and the court (remember, this included her income tax records that reported pathetic earnings while she enjoyed a fabulous upper-middle-class lifestyle). That final annulment offer REALLY concerned me, as she had the opportunity to end the mess and make some money to boot – but she wilfully chose to keep thrashing her ex-husband instead. I didn’t have any clues whatsoever as to what a psychopath was at the time, but I did indeed know that something was very, very wrong at that point.

    In retrospect, I feel fortunate that the stress of her divorce caused her to drop the psychopathic mask. She lived with her ex-husband for five years (fleecing him for tens of thousands of dollars every year the whole time) before she got married. Who knows, if the divorce had not been such a mess, she might have fleeced me for so much and for so long.

    Bottom line is that as long as the psychopath is getting what he or she wants, the relationship can be mutually satisfying (even though it’s basically fraudulent). It’s when something goes wrong – in my case, the double whammy of her divorce mess plus my losing my job – that all hell breaks loose. The most horrifying thing about my experience is that I spent 18 months supporting her though all her difficulties, but things got difficult for me, instead of support I received nothing but blame and rage. – Julian.

  129. Julian,

    RE: Your post above: Trying to think like him is like trying to twist my brain into a pretzel. I don’t struggle with the cog/dis as much anymore, with regards to the relationshit itself, but I do with this. Claudia’s ex is the excessive stalker. There have been others who have been stalked like this but..

    Julian, ya know what? even though i don’t struggle with the cog/dis with regards to the good/bad of him, it’s ALL bad, destructive and evil, at least with regards to what occurred in the relationshit, but I DO struggle with the things he did to me and the pain he caused me. I know it was purposeful and actually, just through writing it through, I’m seeing sooooo many things that were done on purpose to HURT. ON PURPOSE, Julian. Not accidentally, but purposely, ya know? I’m working so hard to heal. SO hard to heal. I”m covetous of my peace, tranquility and having dumped every toxin possible out of my life. My heart is slowly coming back again….WHY……….ya know? WHY would he want to continue to hurt me? He’s done enough. I’m very tired from years of it. Part of the peace I have now is also a restoration of my health.

    If I think like him, I’m of GREAT value to him and was for a long, long time. And it wasn’t for anything POSITIVE at all. It was because I took his shit for ten years. Julian, literally, he would BERATE me for hours at a time and I’d just sit and LISTEN. I won’t and don;’t need to get into the things that were said, but he’d do it maliciously, purposely and as calm as calm can be, and only with smirks on his face as I sat in silence and he WAITED for a response from me.

    I’m tired. I don’t want to hear his voice, I don’t want to see his nasty face. Truthfully, I change my number, he may try to show up places where he knows I go. He also knows my car and where I go to school. Not to mention that he would know that I know. I don’t want to GIVE him ANY satisfaction AT ALL anymore. The traces of happiness and joy and mainly PEACE that I have now, is precious to me. Do you know what I mean? Kel

  130. Julian,

    I have a tendency to disagree about the psychopath having a mutually satisfying relationship with someone until something goes wrong, but I do see that this seems to be the case with WOMEN psychopaths and not men. It was RARE that a psychopath kept his nice mask on with the hundreds of stories I’ve read about psychopathic men. There were ALWAYS red banners waving and we all chose to IGNORE it. Mine was especially mean. I think he was also narcissistic to a great degree, malignant in nature, as well as psychopathic, but in cases with men, each and every time I’ve seen it, SHE was always perceived as “nice” until something didn’t go her way. That is VERY interesting! Kel

  131. Kelli, you’re absolutely right. Trying to think like him WILL twist your mind into a pretzel. But I’ve been there and done that, and I can only ask you to believe me when I say that twisting your mind into a pretzel WILL bring you to the other side. Over the last three months I have read each and every one of Claudia’s postings here, plus five books on psychopathy, narcissism and sociopathy. Yes, this has twisted my mind into a pretzel but this has also forced it BACK into understanding both healthy and pathological points of view. For me, understanding the sickness of the psychopath has been key in my recovery.

    I fully understand your knowing that he did it to you on purpose, maliciously and with evil intent. We work so hard to heal, so very hard – and the most difficult question is WHY did he/she do this to me? When I was nothing but loving, compassionate, understanding, supportive etc. The simple answer: he was SICK!

    I found myself asking the very same questions just a few days ago on Monday when my ex sent me a photo of my precious cat that she had stolen from me – is that sick or what? It’s SICK, and that’s all that really matters, Kelli.

    Do your best to maintain no contact, to maintain your newly found peace and tranquility, and please don’t torture yourself with trying to understand from a rational perspective what his motivations might be. Because they’re not rational, they’re very, very sick. – Julian.

  132. Kelli, I think you have a very good point here, which is supported by many of the stories that I’ve read on Female psychopaths seem to be able to keep up their masks for a very, very long time (decades, sometimes) as long as things are going their way. There will always be weird outbursts (red flags) because life throws things at us, but it’s so easy for men to dismiss them. A good example is the time that my ex threw a few tantrums because her laptop hard drive crashed – turned out her laptop was a complete lemon (a simple Google search revealed that 30,000 other people had had similar problems). She categorically dismissed my appraisal of her laptop as a lemon, claiming that “one of my client’s husband is an IT expert and recommended it.” Yeah, sure, like any IT expert would recommend a cheap-shit consumer laptop for businsess use.

    Let’s also not forget that she spent FIVE YEARS fleecing her boyfriend / ex-husband before they got divorced. He paid for ther masters’ degree, numerous renovations to her rotting house – she certainly got a lot of mileage out of him, and that’s why they remained together for so long. And it’s also why she continued to try to fleece him long after she had devalued and discarded him.

    So yes, I certainly know what you mean, Kelli, I don’t want to give my ex any satisfaction any more either. And now I’m tired and sleepy and I’ll send you my best wishes and a good night. – Julian.

  133. Julian

    You are such a nice person. I’m sorry this happened to you. I’m curious, have you ever talked to her ex to get his side of the story?

    Wishing you a blessed night and a good rest Julian.

  134. Julian,

    I know. I’ve read seven books on narcissism, psychopathy, sociopaths. Been to many blogs, read most of Claudia’s stuff (it’s all over the internet by the way) and I’m waiting for a book called “Puzzling People” by Thomas Sheridan. Have you read that one yet? It’s relatively new and he offers some really excellent insights about psychopaths with his videos on youtube and I’ve listened to MANY of his radio interviews. It helps to read, but when you actually HEAR it with your own ears, over and over, it just seems more REAL. I do understand about twisting the brain, trying to understand the pathology. So much study has brought me to the point of seeing that everything I think that is positive in life that most NORMAL human beings find comfort and value in, flip it. Completely flip it and you have the psychopath.

    But I am stuck on the psychopathic dominance bond. I read about this in Sandra Brown’s book, “Women Who Love Psychopaths”, but never applied it to myself or my ex harassing me in any way, because as he told me many times over “When I’m done, I”M DONE”. Okay…THEN BE DONE! I’m sorry Julian, how long have you been out of the relationshit? I do recall you telling us about her sending the pic of your beloved cat. THAT IS sick! She knew just what would be painful to you, using that cat to do it. I totally get that.

    It’s been nine months. He’s married. I’m guessing it’s “mutually satisfying as she’s in the dark and he has money now to “invest”. You’re right, perhaps I’m a little triggered. Not about wanting him back in my life at all, but about him staying OUT of it and leaving me alone. I could not have been more explicit when he sent me two mother’s day ecards and I told him to NEVER contact me again, EVER. Admittedly, when he tried it the time before, he just waited a few months before he tried it again. I’ve heard NOTHING since and it’s been hell…………and now it’s heaven. I want to keep it that way!

    Blessings. Kel

  135. Kel, “When I’m done I’m DONE.” It sounds familiar. Where did I hear this line before? Ah, yes…my psychopathic ex used to tell me this while we were still together. He didn’t keep his word either. And as you know, now, almost over four years after I broke up with him, he still cyberstalks me on an almost daily basis. Kel many of them are so deranged that they’re never done until they finish their victims off. And even then, even those they manage to completely destroy, they still harass by besmirching their reputations after death with their slime and smear campaigns. Their goal is a total destruction of their targets, which means not just the annihilation of you and your potential and of everything you hold dear, but also of everything good you’ve done with your life and your reputation. Psychopaths are that envious, that petty and that evil. That’s why they are never DONE. Not out of any feelings of missing you, or regret, or even attachment anymore. Out of revenge. You dared walk away from the relationship–which in your case, your ex pretty much had ended anyway–and to move on with your life. That is what still bothers him. You’re rebounding. You’re living without him and starting to enjoy life again. Continue on that route and leave him, with his spleen and his envy, behind in the dust. Claudia

  136. Claudia,

    He knew within the last year, that I was edging out. And when I was done, I WAS done. He wanted the last power play, unfortunately, for him, I HAD the last power play by outing him to his MUCH seduced target for MONTHS. The money would be delayed. I outed him to his wife too. My “friend” that eventually threw me under the bus, outed us at work. Again that was MY fault too. I also REFUSED to grovel when he sent me those ecards. Again the same message, stay the hell away from me. Maybe it was too many power plays, too many one ups on him. If he attempts anything on me at work, HE WILL lose his job. And I’d see to that. So it’s not worth touching me there, other than his slimy smear campaign, but eh, no one really gives a shit in the end do they? I just keep away, mind my own life, my own business, keep my mouth shut and avoid him or anything else that has to do with him, COMPLETELY distant.

    I often wondered if he hated me and wanted me dead. You remember the gun incident that through me onto LF, Claudia. He wanted to destroy me.

    But guess what? I’m not destroyed.

    What I cannot understand, is that what he targeted, he got. New wife, new “companion” and someone to siphon money from. He did a complete morph to make it happen. that’s what he wanted, that’s what he got. You’d think with all that he got and all of his bullshit about “You dont’ want me to be happy!” would say he’s just fine with what he has, is “happy” and doesn’t want to WASTE any energy on bothering me. This is what I cannot understand. He has all he wants. He got a willing target and at the speed of light, someone else who would be FAR more fun to destroy. There isn’t time to bother me and just like it was with my ex psychopathic husband, his OW kept him busy and AWAY from me. This is what I’d hoped with this one.

    I don’t see why at all. Why would it have worked with the first one and not this one? The dominance bond with my ex husband was over when the relationship was over and he had a new OW to destroy…….and by the way? He did that well too. Kel

  137. Kel, to him it’s not a waste of energy. It would be if a psychopath’s goal was to do something constructive with his life. That’s not his goal. Anything destructive and damaging to others is considered a good use of energy for psychopaths. That’s why they’re con men when they could have honest jobs and make just as much if not more money. That’s why they offer fake love and lies, not fidelity and commitment. Everything about them is destructive and fraudulent to the core. I can’t tell you why your psychopathic ex husband released you for good. But I can explain–and did so–why psychopathic losers who can’t release former targets don’t let go. Why some psychopaths release former targets and some don’t has more to do with what they focus on wanting to destroy most. It’s all a matter of their (negative) priorities. Some psychopaths are eaten up alive by envy and want to destroy former and current targets. Others are consumed by financial scams and focus instead on finding new sources to deplete and discard. You’ve had the misfortune of sampling a variety of psychopaths. This last one was the more subtle and envious kind, who wants to make sure you don’t rebound even though he, himself, has moved on with a new wife and a new life. Claudia

  138. I’ve never actually talked to her ex directly, but when the divorce hit the courts I learned a great deal about their history from his court filings, complete with receipts. Evidence speaks far louder than words, and that’s when I began to realize that much of what my ex had told me about herself and her ex-husband were lies and fabrications and that she was a professional con artist. Just the university tuition and home renovations amounted to over $50,000 according to the receipts, plus another $35,000 for the wedding. He had fallen for all her pity ploys and lies and paid all this willingly. I’m so sorry that all that happened to HIM! But his troubles turned out to be my eye-openers, so I’m grateful for that. — Julian.

  139. Kelli, upon further reflection, I may have been in a rather unique situation regarding her psychopathic motivations. You see, I’m a Canadian citizen and although I was living with her in the USA, I still had my house back in Canada. So I was free to return to my “former life” at any time, and she was very afraid of that.

    I’ve read many stories of men whose wives permanently turned into Mr. Hyde right after getting married or having a child together. Once it becomes very difficult for the spouse to leave, the mask generally comes off. But for me, it was always very easy to leave.

    Two of the main reasons our relationship was mutually satisfying were that (1) she was getting what she wanted, money, sex, a normalcy prop, and lots of free home maintenance and repairs, and (2) I didn’t put up with her bullshit when it did happen. After the first couple of raging outbursts, I learned that there was no reasoning with her in that condition and I’d simply put on my jacket and go for a walk. One time I got into the car and drove to a forest for a hike, and she was so subdued when I returned – “I was afraid you weren’t coming back” she said.

    The slide into hell began when I lost my job (with her fear of losing me) amidst the stress of her divorce (with her fear of being exposed for perjury and cheating on her taxes). – Julian.

  140. Julian, your hypothesis sounds very plausible. The more a psychopath has control over you, the more entitled he or she will feel, the more he or she will demand from you, as their right to take. The psychopath I was with also faked love and romance with me for a year and three months. The radical switch happened very quickly, over a few days or at most weeks, during the period of time my husband and I were making plans to divorce so I could move to another state with the psychopath. The switch to the demanding, controlling, stingy, sexually perverted and horrible psychopath was not arbitrary. He was showing me his real identity because the believed I had cut bridges with my family and would move away to another state with him. If you still hold some cards in your hand, the psychopaths sense this and play their hand more carefully. If you don’t have any cards or power left in the relationship, they show their hand and take pleasure in having won. It’s all a game for them. Claudia

  141. Kelli, I haven’t read Sheridan’s book, but I have seen many of his YouTube videos. Myself, I’m more of a book person than a video person, so I’ll probably end up getting the book.

    I moved out of my ex’s house in mid-February – the day before Valentine’s Day, as I could not bring myself to do anything nice for her, given the abuse over the previous three months. So that was seven months ago. However, I maintained contact over the next several weeks, trying to “wind down” the relationship in a chivalrous and respectable fashion. How futile. I got another two months worth of long-distance abuse instead. I’ve now been fully no contact for five months, and things get better every day.

    One of the unusual things that has been especially helpful to me is my years of experience with cellular telephony. In this field, one must reconcile the point of view of huge high-power antennas atop tall towers with the radically different point of view of a small hand-held low-power phone with a tiny antenna, possibly moving at 75 mph in between all kinds of radio obstacles. That’s a pretty heavy brain-twister, but I’ve learned to deal with such disparate points of view.

    I certainly agree with you regarding flipping everything backwards to get the psychopath’s point of view. Especially this: we’re motivated and gratified by doing GOOD things that benefit ourselves and others; they get their kicks out of doing BAD things that hurt others. Like trying to keep their dominance bond alive long, long after the relation-shit is totally over. 🙂 – Julian.

  142. Kelli: I remember when I went three months of NC with mine – changed my number the whole bit he never never tried to reach me; (although that would be pretty difficult with no phone number or e mail for him and its not like he can show up at my home) but I was shocked in a way because I thought he would actually drive here to try and make contact with me – but NOTHING I think it was during that time I REALLY realized this man could have cared less if I lived or died, made no difference to him. Kelli he DOES NOT HATE YOU, he hates the loss of what you once were to him, he hates your strength that you no longer worship him and he cant play his sick games with you. He called probably to test the waters, wondering if you would answer. When I broke contact with mine after the three month silence it was as if NOTHING changed, he was not only the same he was EVEN WORSE. Immediately he wanted to see me professing how much he missed me sexually etc….. but that is NOT the real reason he wanted to see me; he wanted to punish me also – how DARE I just cut him off he wanted to pull me back in and what better way to gain control over me again than to see me in person. THank God I had the strength to say NO – I have not seen him for over a year and this has saved me – I am back to NC – he DOES try to call once and awhile and I dont respond.

    I also thought the same thing, why the hell are you still calling ME, you are obviously quite content living with who you are living with, taking your vacations together, etc… So leave me alone!! Its not that they LOVE their partners more than they loved us Kelli (You know they cant bond or love ANYONE) its their constant sick pathological drive they carry to always have the need to dominate, abuse and control their targets Mine used SEX as his weapon for me; “give her a little passionate hot sex and she will play my game and let me torture her and its my tool so that I can degrade her more and more to break her down, weaken her and MAYBE, just MAYBE one day she will be so broken down and weak that she will comply with my sexual requests. THis was HIS goal!!! IT DIDNT WORK, and he will NEVER get me to compromise my morals and beliefs by feeding me some the charm of a PIMP. I KNOW what and who I am and I have come to realize through all in how this man made me doubt myself that I am even STRONGER than his GF. I no longer buy into that illusion and bullcrap that SHE is his love and I was just his whore, NICE TRY PSYCHO but I AINT BUYING IT!!! I KNOW what YOU ARE also, I KNOW what you do to her, I KNOW what your sick triangulation games are with your women, I ripped his mask off but he stills wears it for her; she is SO lost in his illusion of lies and house of mirrors that until she can remove herself from him she will NEVER be able to see him for what he REALLY IS.She is still being fed the drug that keeps her clinging to him and loving him and that is exactly what he wants. So off you go into the sunset GF with a man that is a sexual predator, psychopath, sex addict; a man who has no remorse, conscience, a man who CAN NOT LOVE, and yes GF that also means he CANT LOVE YOU EITHER!!!! So you see Kelli our pain was for a REASON; its GOOD to have this pain because this pain is our TRUTH this pain has saved our lives, the GF is not in pain because she still has the drug, she still believes HE LOVES HER and WE know better because they CANT!!!!

    Did he want to destroy you? OF COURSE HE DID, and he is also destroying whoever he is with, dont forget that! Love Linda

  143. Claudia, the game analogy just fits like a glove, doesn’t it? Towards the end when the abuse was at its worst, my ex-girl-fiend was totally convinced that she had all the cards. She firmly believed that I would liquidate my house and everything else, illegally move to the USA and bring all my money for her benefit.

    Her self-deception just astounded me; when I asked on what grounds I could immigrate, she said she’d sponsor me on a fiancé visa. Huh? How so, when you’re still married and don’t seem to want to settle your divorce? – Julian.

  144. Kelli-Claudia:That’s why they offer fake love and lies, not fidelity and commitment. Everything about them is destructive and fraudulent to the core.

    Kelli – When we read statements such as what Claudia expressed above we MUST believe these statements did not apply to just US, the OW; this applies to EVERYBODY, ALL THEIR WOMEN, ALL THEIR PARTNERS, (rich or poor) and I know its sometimes difficult to grasp as they are off living their life with someone else and I for example was just an 8 hour romp in the sack – but I have grown to see what a roost that also was. Sure you are so comitted to her that is why you are screwing me at this moment right? You have to really see all the cracks and inconsistencies with these clever paths, he was loyal and faithful to her as he was to me, ha ha ha what a joke x0 linda

  145. Linda, I agree. Psychopaths don’t discriminate in their discrimination (and mistreatment) of others. Claudia

  146. Julian, I just wish you hadn’t given her your cat. That’s the one card she has left over you. As for the rest, psychopaths drag their feet on divorce in order to continue to exercise power over their ex’s and to make their new partners jealous of them. If their ex and new partners are engaged in a tug of war over them, they’re too busy fighting each other to notice both are being mistreated and duped. That was my ex’s favorite strategy too. Fortunately, it wasn’t effective. The fact his wife did everything possible to hold on to that psychopath and discussed with my husband everything he had done wrong (including the fact that he had raped her and that he was with me only to see “how long he can make it last”) was the biggest favor anyone has done for me in my entire life. It helped open my eyes to the fact the psychopath was… a psychopath, the worst person I have ever met. Claudia

  147. I’m often very humbled the amount of intelligence on this blog. One of the things I lost with my psychopath is the level of intelligence I had at one time. When I left the relationship, I realized i wasn’t as bright as I once thought LOL! It’s taken me awhile to believe in that part of myself again. I lost a lot of my ability to articulate well. This is interesting because I’m now concerned that some functions of my brain are not at capacity or are rewired from all the trauma inflicted. My ex was extremely bright, which I think made him really good at being the successful psychopath that he is. He sabotaged all my efforts at what came naturally to me: To study many things, to learn, to engage in debate and discussion about things going on in the world, even with theology, to which he has a degree. My growth was severely stunted. Being here and reading everyone’s stories has helped tremendously, I think, in “fixing” my brain, to get my thoughts up and running again with reflection and feeling that the flexibility that I once really enjoyed in learning and absorbing information is finally returning to me. I thank you all for your thoughtful, insightful, intelligent feedback that has me on the right track to personal growth again.

    Linda, I know all about what you’ve said above regarding psychopaths. I understand how they think, I see the most dangerous elements of the relationship. Things are coming up for me now, memories that were long buried of things he did to me on purpose, while I excused those behaviors It was truly awful. I’ve reached a huge turning point in the last couple of weeks, a paradigm shift with regards to the psychopath and his thought processes, but more his motives which are always, purely destructive. It is a painful reality, yet in a different way. I no longer long for him. IN fact, his evil is rather fear provoking. I want to avoid it at all costs. As with my first ExP hubby, who just went away when he had another to destroy, this is what I had hoped with this one too. He targeted money and he got it. I’d hoped he’d be so into that, I wouldn’t be a thought, thus I would have room to heal and grow more. That it’s a possibility that he’s playing these little games is very irritating and in a way hurtful for all the pain he has caused me. I really like my peace and my feeling of being centered now. I have no doubt as to who he is. I have often thought of what I would do, mentally preparing myself for how I would respond should he contact me. Then I stopped thinking about it and preparing when he got married again. At first it was so painful as I had not yet absorbed the reality of his condition, but then that turned to relief. The further away I move from him and what was my life with him, I’m growing. Healing. And I’m fiercely protective of it now.

    I won’t let him push me. The calls bother me, but I know what would create drama for him and I don’t to push it. I’ll deal with his little cowardly calls. Eventually, he’ll get bored knowing I’m not going to respond and go back to whatever he’s doing. I know just who he is now. Kel

  148. Kel, the psychopath was trying to stunt your intellectual curiosity since one of their main strategy is to narrow our interests, contact with others and activities to revolve only around THEM. They get us trapped inside a little box, which may not be a physical prison, but it certainly is a mental and emotional one. You refused to stay inside the box and are exploring so many interests that will help you grow as a person. Not to speak of the fact you’re starting school again! The psychopath, and his prison, are a thing of the past. Claudia

  149. Kelli: I never had any doubt that you are very educated with this disorder but sometimes it helps for others to remind us over and over the bitter facts; it has helped me maybe its a way of debrainwashing me. Mine was a pretty smart one too, (stupid predator) but smart in other areas. I would also be anxious if I spoke to mine I STILL want to call him a psychopath right to his face but we wont go there he would just laugh. No contact and no response is what the experts advise and I am sticking to it.

    Sorry hon I didnt mean to undermine your knowledge – even as much as I am educated on this disorder I still cant believe someone cant feel love; they can come home to their wife or GF after having an orgy or whatever they do and carry on as if they did nothing wrong. Maybe its good that I will never grasp that Love Linda

  150. Linda,

    OH NO, I’m so sorry, i wasn’t implying that, I apologize if it came across that way. UGH! You’re right, it’s good to remind over and over again, but I think I’ve absorbed his disorder pretty well at this point. Just a bit stuck and also somewhat surprised about the phone calls, really. First ex P never looked back, which was my biggest blessing. It was my understanding that once they had supply, with the exception of a few, they don’t try to contact the victims again, unless it’s early on. They usually go away.

    What I was talking about with intelligence and such, this is a real thing for me personally. I’m not as quick on my feet intellectually as I was and i KNOW that’s from year of being within the confines of a pathological relationship.

    I’m good with everything you’ve outlined and the reminders too! XXOO Kel

  151. Kelli memories that were long buried of things he did to me on purpose, while I excused those behaviors It was truly awful. I’ve reached a huge turning point in the last couple of weeks, a paradigm shift with regards to the psychopath and his thought processes, but more his motives which are always, purely destructive. It is a painful reality,

    You said it so well…. all mine did to me was on purpose to hurt and destroy me as well I think that is going to hurt for a long time with me but as time passes they become more evil and repulsive. I think we both have made huge strides in our recovery, we both needed to “get out” to each other the pain we have carried around for so long. We have never been alone in our suffering by these monsters. We have reached the other side, with time the wounds will heal – wish I could rush the time ha Linda

  152. I’m good with everything you’ve outlined and the reminders too!

    Ok, all is fine hon. You are so very intelligent my friend, I think they are always trying to trip us – look what we were involved with Kelli; someone who WANTED to hurt us its no wonder we werent left catatonic ha ha Good vs Evil I always said – I firmly believe love can heal all things hugs back linda

  153. Linda,

    These exchanges have helped to ease my cog/dis MUCH. Some have been uncomfortable for me, but all that is, is something that is coming up that needs healing. I don’t suffer anymore cog/dis about what happened in the relationship regarding the good times vs. the bad, because I’ve reached the conclusion that none of it is real. None of it was real. The good OR the bad. But what was real and is the most painful, is that I was targeted for the sole purpose of destruction. The obviousness of the exploitation via demands and the berating emotional abuse, then the physical threat to my safety, was the loud and clear indication that it was ALL purposeful. Why would someone want to target you to hurt, just because he/she CAN? Because that’s what they do. Studying about it, learning more, reading, listening, discussing, have all played apart in understanding it more. I think it takes a long time to heal from just that part of it alone, once the cog/dis is settled about the idealization phase the the devaluing. Even when you’re in the “know’ about psychopathy and are very sure that’s what you’re dealing with the, idea that someone wanted for your destruction when you were loving them is beyond my comprehension and always will be. For that I’m grateful. You see……..the peace i enjoy now, the NC that I covet, he can never have. His life will always be about constantly trying to ease his boredom, to create some fix for the deadness inside that he/she is.

    I’m more and more grateful for this experience everyday. I no longer suffer from the anxiety that dogged me every single day. My blood pressure is back to perfect normal. I’m enjoying life now. There are times of pain, but they are tolerable. If I was with him now, (and I was thinking about this this morning, as I was making my coffee in PEACE), I would be a nervous wreck. I honestly felt, when I spent the night with him, that I could not get out of bed unless he did and I was not free to just be me. God help me if I got sick. Ironically, I’m less sick now that I’m not around him. I don’t have to live walking on eggshells everyday. I’ll take a few annoying phone calls over having to talk to the bastard or put up with his berating abusive behavior any day of the week. He’ll go away. I’m not much fun if I’m not responding. He loved being screamed at. Let her do that. He’s HER problem now. Kel

  154. Kelli: I never have shared this but I will now – Do you recall those times we ached and cried as we knew they were spending their lives with someone else, as he slept with HER every night as we waited so patiently in the side wings just to EVEN GET A PHONE CALL? Oh yes i remember those moments all too well. I thought WHY am I doing this to myself, NOW today I realize it was HIM THAT DID THAT TO ME and I was the victim that was ALLOWING IT. He SET IT UP the WHOLE SICK love triangulation that he used to break my heart. Now it feels pretty damn wonderful to NOT GIVE A SHIT; he didnt destroy me he destroyed HIMSELF and reduced himself to a NOTHING in my eyes. Claudia is right they really are stupid for what they try to project and do on to us they end up doing to themselves in the end. He ended up destroying the image of himself NOT ME. Hope you can see it that way also Linda

  155. Linda,

    Oh yes, I remember MANY of those nights well. What I realize about that is that he ENJOYED all that groveling, waiting and crying over him. It didn’t mean shit to him. I would obsessively check emails to see if he had written to me that evening. Most of the times he would, but I knew what was happening, in my mind, when he didn’t. I’m floored that I allowed myself to believe he loved me. That sex for him was the clincher, therefore it was for me too. Sex was awful, but I was addicted to it AND to him. I can’t believe I let it go on so long. And now I understand why he enjoyed the triangulation. Why he loved it. He wasn’t hurting just one, but two. He wasn’t duping just one, but two, for ten years. And he got away with it until the very end, until it was outed. then I was to blame for that. Well, shoot, even when HE outed us to his wife five years in, eight months later he was BACK. Then it dragged on another five years. Sooooooo many times when I wish I had listened to my gut screaming at me to get out. There were so many times I wanted to so bad, but didn’t feel the strength to pull it off. I wish I had known more about intermittent reinforcement and the brainwashing games. I knew i was stuck, but I couldn’t figure out why, nor the intensity. I realized early on, that I didn’t even like this man anymore! It started to dawn on me more when I asked him over and over NOT to do things that hurt me. But he did them WORSE the next time and would smirk about it while doing it. I could never understand why I was reacting the way I was, and I couldn’t understand why he was so CALM, COOL and COLLECTED and then would go SILENT on me. He enjoyed me screaming and yelling at him, blowing up his phone. During his date with the first target in another state, I was blowing up his phone and she noticed he was checking his phone messages,………calm, cool and collected.


    I”m so glad to be out of that disaster. I’d NEVER go back to that again. EVER. triangulations and duping women is what this man loves. I won’t be his triangulation component nor his poison container again. Ever again. And without all of that, it will take all he has within (which is nothing) to go out of his way to be “nice” to her because there is NO ONE to take his toxic waste everyday! SO GLAD to be OUT Kel

  156. kelli – There were also times as lost as I was in his facade that I would tell myself, LINDA, YOU DONT HAVE TO WALK AROUND IN YOUR LIFE LIKE THIS, IN PAIN over a person such as this You have the power to end this but thats just it Kelli I DIDNT HAVE THE POWER because I could NOT SEE what he was doing to me. I strictly was focusing on how great this person was, how handsome, charming how rich, etc and I could ONLY see his rejection of me for this other woman he must have found BETTER then myself. THAT IS ALL I SAW!!!! That is ALL he wanted me to see too. Every vacation he took with her was just MAINTENANCE thats ALL it was, and the man has three months vacation a year with the county after 30 years and he takes her to the SAME place for FIVE days, FIVE days? He takes her to the Ozarks, (which is nice I am not knocking it) BUT he takes her there as he fishes in the lakes with the money he has he should be taking her on TWO WEEK vacations – my counselor said, FIVE DAYS is about ALL he can stand to be with JUST ONE PERSON, he figures he is enjoying HIS vacation and what HE likes to do and she can come along as a companion take it or leave it The poor thing is like a dog on a leash with him where ever he goes SHE GOES, just so she can be with him and MAYBE if she is lucky he will give her some of that HOT SEX that is smitten with ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION, as it was with me half the time. It was NEVER EVER NEVER what I imagined in my mind – she never got the BEST OF HIM, I NEVER GOT THE BEST OF HIM, nobody gets the best of them because there is NO BEST Kelli. The nights I would not sleep crying because he was making love to her and NOT ME, OH MY GOD he had me under a doozie of a spell and I see how mentally unhealthy I was and it was HIM that made me that way. I would wonder if she satisfied him, if she was this or that WHO THE HELL CARES who she is, what she is, what she has, let her sleep next to the devil, let HER keep believing this man loves her – As Claudia states, you feel nothing but PITY for those that transform into love slaves for these men – its nothing but PURE destruction to another person. I never understood when my counselor said, BE GLAD she stays with him, NOW IAM GLAD it was NEVER ME as you said I would have been a train wreck being with this person eying every woman that had a rack and every man too no doubt – I was laughing the other day when I thought of my husband calling up women behind my back saying things like, ewww baby my dick is hard thinking about you, and eww baby did you masturbate today, and eww baby I want another man to be with us. See how STUPID that sounds Claudia? What if I was on vacation with my husband and he was sneaking off calling his other women (as my x path did) ? But I never looked at the WHOLE picture I was just so damn conned and fooled by this sick idiot. I read once that you can pretty much count on your psychopath doing this to at LEAST one other person if he is doing this to you, the same lines, the same sick ROTTEN sex, – The sex was nothing but ANIMAL SEX, it was RAW, ROUGH and if it wasnt he could not perform. Now imagine him tenderly making love to his GF? It just “Aint ” gonna happen. Hope she packs her rubber sheets for their vacation in the event he feels the urge to urinate on her. SICK BASTARD!!!!! I think I have finally gotten the SLIME off me from him –

    Life can and will be good again for us (for all of us) hey you never told me the name of your weiner dog? Each of us has fought the battle to regain our lives back, we experienced utter betrayal and rejection to the core we were drug through LIVING HELL simply because we encountered a psychopath in our lives. We did NOTHING wrong during the course of the ENTIRE relationship, and in the end they tried to make us believe we did. There were never two hearts beating in this relationship but only one, and it was mine. I once thought I lost so much from this experience, now, as I am slowly getting myself back again I can see there is nothing in them directly you lose – what did I lose? Living in wealth? Because that is all he really has and for others that may be enough, but it would have NEVER made me happy. I am 50 years old, got laid off, lost my job from PTSD and now I am working at a grocery store in the office for a horrible wage – but hey thats OK, I wont be sipping umbrella drinks on some tropical vacation for awhile thats for sure, but I have what many people dont have and will never know; I have MYSELF, and my dignity – that is how I left the path relationship and I can live with that –
    x0x0 Linda

  157. Linda and Kel, that’s just it: the whole strategy of triangulation. For as long as the psychopath can manipulate one victim to focus on another–as the object of her jealousy and vitriol–she misses the real enemy, which is the psychopath himself. To survive such a toxic relationship with your dignity and identity intact–or stronger than it was–represents a victory in itself. Claudia

  158. Julian: Thank you for your encouragement and expressing that you feel I am recovering and seeing the truth and light. You are a bit further along than I am and that gives me so much hope that I also one day will heal the raw wounds of the betrayal that was done to my life. Until you can let go and KILL the facade and illusion of what they SEEMED to be the wounds wont heal, you must FIRST work through that illusion you carried around in your head for so long. Kelli and I have been doing just that by exchanging what has been such a deep deep pain regarding the OW. I know those thoughts have kept me from moving on – now I can FINALLY release him and know in my heart I have found the truth, I have seen the light and he is FULLY unmasked for what he is. I still have moments of deep sorrow in letting go of “the idea relationship” that was presented to me I ask myself, WHY oh WHY couldnt it have been real? Why did he have to be sick and disordered does he not know what he lost? NO he will never know what he lost with me – he is a dysfunctional human being in ALL interactions with people they dont call them sociopaths for nothing. He will be this way a year from now and 10 years from now, he will go to his grave being who he is. They are just plain sick and they turn who ever they interact with sick. ( or they try)

    Freedom from them is SO painful but I hope in time the rewards will slowly start coming back into my life. Thanks Julian x Linda

  159. Hey Linda,

    I’ll come work with you!! LOL!! I’m serious too 🙂

    Mine wasn’t the sexual deviate yours was. I’m convinced that they manifest themselves in different ways in different relationships. this is why I think the triangulations were so appealing to him, because he had the Madonna/Whore complex. I also think this derives from the extremely religious upbringing by his wack narcissistic mother and his extremely rigid, uptight abusive father. In his mind, once he is married, the woman becomes, over time, the Madonna. He withholds, and how he does it is to set up distancing emotionally from her. This could be done in a variety of ways and mine was not limited by his brainwashing creativity. He didn’t have to be “attached” to her OR to me. He created conflict when there was none, for both of us I think. HIs deviancy was very much an immature one. This is what had me stuck for the LONGEST time, Linda. I thought that because he was NOT as sexually deviant that this meant he was NOT a psychopath and nothing could be further from the truth. Each psychopath will manifest his illness in many different ways, as a result of upbringing or belief systems within families. Sometimes they won’t. Some, I believe are more cerebral, others more somatic. It just depends on a lot of factors, so when I removed that from the equation (sexual deviancy) and stuck to the traits (lack of empathy, remorse, guilt, blame shifting, silent treatments, extreme emotional abuse, etc) well, he was STILL a psychopath. Mine manifests more in extremely controlling behaviors, extremely subtle emotional abuse, unpredictability, gaslighthing manipulating and lying, you name it, he’s got it down PAT. He likes to control ONE woman, have her around for image, now money and of course, sex when he doesn’t have another to triangulate. Mine was bored very easily. He could not stick to one thing for very long, even watching tv. He avoided his wife as much as possible.

    By the way, Chica, what’s up with the vacation maintenance? mine did that too and it was DEVASTATING each time. He would call me from where he was, WITH HER. One time he called me during a vacation on THEIR anniversary!! WHO DOES THAT?
    MIcheal, Julian, Gary, would any of YOU consider doing that? UGH!

    Linda, I take responsibility for my part. I knew he was married. I knew he had children. My therapist and I talked about this a little last time I was there. She asked me what the lure was. In a way this was pivotal for me, because it helped me understand that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing in the luring phase. Just because it didn’t look like what he has done to secure a marriage, it doesn’t mean it didn’t exist because it did. we were friends for two years prior to any intimate contact. He knew EXACTLY what was going on. He wanted me to think I pursued him so as to take the blame away from him and his choices to CHEAT. My sob story from him, was the my wife is abusive tactic. The things he did to make sure I KNEW she was abusive, were amazing, right down to bringing me a shirt she gave him for father’s day, I believe and it was cut into SHREDS. He was all depressed on the floor in front of me telling me he just didn’t know what to do and blah blah blah….he also said at one point he was afraid for his life and kept his gun under his bed. It wasn’t until he pulled it out on me that I KNEW the truth of that lying sad ass story. He also knew that I had been violently abused by my ex and KNEW him. How could I NOT, going through such a traumatic end to my marriage, know that I would feel utter compassion for him and his situation and THAT my dear, was THE HOOK into the relationship. I loved him dearly, bought his bullshit story and there it goes. I was extremely and fiercely loyal to him even in the face of horrendous abuse. HORRENDOUS abuse. VERY early in the relationship after our first sexual encounter, over the phone from work, he was talking to me then went silent for a minute or two, when i asked what he was thinking he said, “you know i”m probably going to hurt you”. OMG!!! My reponse was, “LOL, I”m a big girl and I can take it”. Uuuuugggghhhhh…….that makes me sick now. If there isn’t a better warning than that, I don’t know what is. I was so in love and so sucked in. His calm cool collected demeanor was literally SALVE to my aching heart. I completely missed the biggest red flag I ever saw and will NEVER miss it again. That calm, cool and collected was actually, NO EMPATHY NOR EMOTION. ALL of his emotions were inappropriate in MANY given situations. I noticed this most when a coworker passed away that he claimed to like and talked too on occasion and that I adored. she had MS and died from it one weekend, after having retired early just a few years before. NO EMOTION AT ALL and he worked with her for twenty years. It was amazing. Not even after the funeral (which I did not attend but he wanted me too), did he show emotion about it AT ALL. Two more coworkers have passed since and the same reaction. “yea, it’s really too bad” WTF?

    I hate that I was ever involved with him. I hate it. I’m angry about it. I’m so angry at the wasted years, the duping, lying, manipulating cheating little bastard that he is. Kel

  160. Claudia,

    That is a brilliant post! And that’s exactly what they do. this is also discussed in the book by Lundy Bancroft “Why Does He Do That?” about abusive men, how they love that women are more focused on one another, rather than the man involved in the triangle. The psychopath finds this amusing. He keeps his image intact, and he gets two women to fight over him, as well as a lot of sex and purposeful harm. The more for the psychopath, the better and more rewarding the harm and destruction. This is why i keep saying that when it comes to the victims of the psychopath, it doesn’t matter whether they are wife, OW, GF, mother, daughter, sister, friend…..ALL will be his victims. Many women blame the OW for the ruinous destruction of the psychopath, thus overlooking who he is, which is EXACTLY what he wants! Kel

  161. Kel, how true: psychopaths target everyone in their intimate circle. Nobody is spared from being used and harmed by them. Claudia

  162. Linda, you’re most welcome. I can see that you’re doing really well also. I had the advantage of being self-employed, so I could take three full months off work to deal with my personal mess. You’re so right about having to work through the illusion and finally kill it off; that’s exactly what I did. For three months, most of the cognitive dissonance revolved around Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. For me, both of them existed at the same time and I just couldn’t understand which one I was really dealing with – and every time I contacted my ex, I didn’t know which one would show up. It literally drove me crazy. But as I learned more and more about psychopathy, I realized that Mr. Hyde was the real deal, and I had no choice but to say goodbye to Dr. Jekyll, who was nothing more than a fabrication to lure me, my dick and my wallet (excuse the bluntness, but that’s the honest truth!) into the nightmarish world of the psychopath.

    Claudia, don’t fret that she still has my cat. Letting her keep the cat was a strategic decision on my part. For two months, she used the cat as a weapon (yeah, come next week and get her, no don’t come I’m too busy with my business, come the week after, no my new victim is taking me to Paris… you get the picture). Rather than allowing her to continue this crap, I mailed her the medical records and vaccination certificates and bid a tearful goodbye to my precious feline friend. But after five months of not hearing anything from my ex, the cat photo certainly was shocking, at least temporarily. But no, my ex is gone and my cat is gone too.

    I briefly considered driving out to New Jersey again and actually breaking into the house and stealing my cat back, but then concluded that it’s exactly what she’d want me to do. That’s breaking the law, she’d file a police report (the perennial victim!) and I would have nothing but serious difficulties thereafter in my frequent Canada/USA border crossings.

    Linda and Claudia, thanks very much for your kind comments. I’m still trying to put this mess to rest, and your perspectives are always so helpful. – Julian.

  163. Julian, you were probably right to cut your losses in this case, even if it was difficult to do since you love your cat. Your input is very helpful to us too! Claudia

  164. LInda,

    Thank you for your trust in sharing what you have here. It means so much to me personally and I know to a lot of other women out there who have experienced the sexually deviant psychopath as you have. XXOO Kel
    Oh, in case you didn’t see one of the many posts we’ve shared, my dogs name is Hercules. I asked Claudia to send you a pic of him.

  165. Claudia, thanks so much. Minna was my only “foster failure” (the term used to describe the situation where you’re a foster home and supposed to eventually give up your foster to a permanent home, but decide to keep the foster instead). Within days, Minna took an instant liking to me and stuck to me like glue. Every morning, I’d go to my home office to start working and she’d follow me and wrap herself around my bum and purr away. A mere ten days later, I wrote a letter to the adoption agency with an enclosed cheque for the adoption fee, explaining that this cat was just so happy here with me that I felt that Minna had already chosen her permanent home, and that I was not about to argue with her. Leaving her with my psycopathic ex-girl-fiend was truly one of the most difficult decisions of my life. – Julian.

  166. Claudia,

    What is really sad, is that some women on other sites have berated me for the compassion I’ve had towards the OW’s of my ex husband, with the exception of one that was obviously disordered herself. It’s sad to me because it wasn’t their fault. It was TOTALLY his. They had no idea he was lying and manipulating to the extent that he did to them. I think this is the same reasons that I just shared above. Its easier to blame that slimey, nasty, slutty OW than it is to blame HIM, that nasty, slimey, slutty psychopath LOL!

    I held my husband accountable. Precisely why we are not together anymore. Little did i know I would find myself caught in the same web my ex’s OW’s were. The bitterness of some women towards the OW is understandable, initially, but to put the blame on her for the psychopaths lies, manipulations, actions, to preserve whatever idealization and life shared with him, is sad. One of my ex’s OW’s recently passed away at quite a young age. She left behind five children. Her husband, thank God was NOT a psychopath. I had the privilege to talk with her sister who told me that she felt tremendous guilt for having been with my ex. I wish I could have known that and offered her comfort about that. she never should have had to carry that guilt. And we all know he never will. The amount of lives destroyed by these people is astounding to me while he escapes detection and appropriate blame and shame. Kel

  167. Kel, as you know, even when psychopaths do get caught and rightly blamed for their wrongdoings, they’re still shameless and even proud of it. The more lives they destroy, the more powerful they feel. Very pathetic individuals. Claudia

  168. Kelli and All: I think it would be beneficial if I shared with all of you what I learned from another woman who I grew rather close with; she was the live in GF of a sociopath. Through the experiences we shared being in two different roles we no longer held resentment towards the OW, vs the GF as we both were played and duped in these roles. She was with him for 4 years; he serial cheated on her, beat her, and lived though all the cycles of the relationship; it took her almost a full year to leave this man the only way that was successful in extracting herself was moving, she left Canada and moved to the states across the boarder. She left him several times moving back into her apartment in Canada but he stalked her so badly that she would go back.

    She was never jealous of his OW because she recognized what he was and put the blame totally on HIM. The other women were around her constantly as she now looks back, when they watched his son play hockey the other women were there she would see how he interacted with them, she would see how he treated her in front of them at the games; he was distant; she would purposely try to hold his hand and he would take his hand away knowing one of his OW was watching. He would come home at the end of his work day she would kiss him hello and his face would smell of another woman’s genitals I KID YOU NOT. On one accasion she said to him: I dont like the way you smell he said to her, WHAT are you talking about, she told him you know damn well what I am talking about. that happened twice until I guess he got smart and cleaned himself up after his little sex breaks he took during lunch. She would find his car parked at the hotel across the street from his office, she found rubbers in his wallet, recepts from,gas stations that were clear across town wondering why he would get gas at this place so often, she one time found a list on a piece of paper with womens names on it and he had written “Times available” there were probably 10 names on this list, he had several dating sites he was registered with that she monitored – he NEVER knew she could access his PC and every activity he did on it. The man was not a very SMART sex addict predator he was pretty careless I will say that but if she had not been looking for these clues she probably would not have found them if she trusted him she would have NO reason to snoop in his personal things. He would always put his dirty laundry at the BOTTOM of the hamper so any odors of other women, perfume etc would be harder to detect.

    For the first year she was in HEAVEN, he was everything she ever dreamed about; things became bad after that; however she now realizes even during the first few months when things were new, wonderful, exciting, passionate guess what? HE WAS CHEATING ON HER!!! So there you have it, even during the idolization cycle when they were having sex constantly and he couldnt keep his hands off her he was STILL screwing others she found clues and evidence of this. See how they can FAKE so well? He was treating her as if he found the LOVE OF HIS LIFE, sweet to her, kind, attentive, passionate, held her in his arms every night as they slept, called her from work three and four times a day telling her he missed her and will be home soon and she better be naked – yet this man found the time to STILL be with others as he was professing to her he wanted to marry her someday and they were living together.

    Things were good for about two years it was THEN she started to REALLY see the signs; he would get dressed to watch his boys (from his x wife who by the why he also beat) to watch his boys play hockey and he would come out of the bathroom looking like he was dressed to kill, like he was going on a date rather than a game, (gotta look good all his women are going to see him) he would eye EVERY SINGLE women that was attractive when they were out together, that predation stare she called it. One time two women pulled into their driveway just as they were arriving home from an event and he said, who is that he told her to wait in the car and he went over and talked to these two women for a good 10 minutes – she asked WHO were they? He told her they got lost LOST? REALLY? She saw them at the hockey games later. Lost indeed!!! Of course she questioned his behavior but he would always say, they are friends and you are paranoid and lack trust what is your problem. The man screwed women during work, after work, he even had an affair with a neighbor at the complex they lived in; one night he just disapeared for two hours said he was going to the neighbors for a bit, she knocked on the door all the lights were out, nobody answered and he was in there screwing some woman. She came home early from work one time walked into their condo and it was pitch black she actually hear whispers in the dark he was screwing someone on the sofa the woman must have hid behind the sofa and snuck out. OH MY GOD

    This woman was BEAUTIFUL, SMART, she was everything some men would dream of having; yet it was NEVER enough for her sociopath no matter what she did for him; beautiful meals, perfectly kept home, she catered to his every need and it did not matter. Claudia I think this is why they dont see beauty or anything of much value in their partners because they get such a variety from all the others they are involved with they figure they have the best of everything from dozens of others. So when she left him he cried and cried on the phone to her begged her to come back and what does he do after he hangs up the phone? He is on his PC setting up dates with other women within 5 minutes after his fine acting job, he is actually quite serious with one woman he has been carrying on with. This is what method actors they are; he doesn’t miss her, he never really cared that she left, he just cared that he lost a MAIN DUPE and now he has to find one to replace her that is ALL it ever was and that is all the love he ever had for her. The ENTIRE relationship was a LIE. Oh and by the way Kelli she also had MONEY!!!!! See how he played her, cheated on her, abused her, betrayed her – they are so sick. She has been away from him now going on a year she said it was the hardest thing she has ever done to leave this man but he was KILLING HER SLOWLY, oh he got mad at her one night because she wanted to use the computer so he stood up threw a chair down at her and bruised a kidney and tendons in her leg and was punching her with his FISTS, she crawled upstairs he took her cell phone away from her and left her there and left for a day, never seeing if she was ok, NEVER to this day apologized for beating her.

    So ya life would have been GRAND living with one of these monsters eh? Some of the greatest advise she ever gave me was; Yes linda you were betrayed and played and emotionally raped but EVERYDAY I was betrayed and LIED to, everyday I was abused, and everyday I was emotionally raped as well, I LIVED EVERYDAY this way, I slept over a 1,000 nights with this man, gave MY LIFE and LOVE to this man and in the end I got FAKE TEARS and his infidelities thrown in my face, THAT is how I was treated as THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE. She said the vacations were the WORST; there was no romantic love making, he was always anxious, bitchy, wined about everything she said she could NOT WAIT to get back home and him BACK TO WORK!!!! Seems they CANT STAND to be cooped up with ONE PERSON for very long – sociopaths have to be with OTHER PEOPLE its what feeds their disorder.

    So, we sit and wonder what we missed? I think it was US who saw their GOOD side (and God knows it was NOT GOOD) he probably did me a favor by only being with me a day or two –
    Lesson Learned eh? Linda

  169. Kelli, I just finished Snakes in Suits the other night, and towards the end (pp. 286-289) Hare discusses dealing with the aftermath of an involvement with a psychopath. He stresses the importance of addressing the feelings of shame and anger and the desire to feel vindicated. These are “…normal emotional and psychological responses, part of the repair and regrowth process.”

    CBT doesn’t work for this part of the repair process. All that’s needed is empathy, kindness and understanding on the part of the therapist. The “just get over it” attitude is a huge stumbling block, as it just deepens the feelings of shame and anger, completely invalidates your experience and adds an extra dose of unnecessary frustration. I know first-hand; several of my family and friends had that attitude, but fortunately many did not.

    Did you come to any understanding with your therapist on Friday? – Julian.

  170. Kelli: Your dog is adorable!!!! I once had a weiner, we had to give her up because no dogs were allowed, (oops) so we gave her to my mother-n-law, her name was Ginger. She lived a long long life passed away some years ago and was very much loved.


  171. Linda,

    Wow. Just wow…………’s going to take me a few to digest this, but I definitely want to respond………….wow…………….


  172. Linda,

    Thank you. He’s my baby 🙂 Kel

  173. Kelli, you’re far more adorable than your weiner. I’ll never forget your post about how much time and effort and money you spent upon his illness. Most people would have just euthanized their pet rather than deal with all that aggravation. You’re a remarkably strong, kind and loving person. – Julian.

  174. ((((((((((( Julian )))))))))))))))

    That is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me in a long time and in a genuine way. Your post brought me to tears. Thank you so much for your kind words. But humbly, what else would a person do for their best friend? 🙂 Kel

  175. No animal could have ever hoped for a better best friend. Hercules is truly fortunate to have you. – Julian.

  176. Kelli – Some Story eh? This is only one story of a woman who lived her life with a sociopath – I often compare my x path to hers. Mine was MUCH MUCH smarter in hiding his predation although this man with all the abuse he did to her was always able to charm his way back into her life and get her to go back with him, they have that ability like nothing I have ever seen. I never told you the ending of the story; she moved FAR FAR AWAY across the boarder – well he begged to see her, so she thought GEE he must really love me to come all this way – he said they would pick out rings together, etc… I told her NO do not let this man visit you but she did and who am I to judge I KNOW how persuading these paths can be – so he got across the board and spent a week with her. He was a perfect gentlemen she said but with THREE days he started to get restless, irritable – they went on a fairy boat ride around the area where she lives, did things together, she pulled out over 2,000 while he was there – she kept wondering WHY NO RING and then he said, OH I just said that to get across the boarder (as he has a criminal history of violence and he had a hard time getting over the boarder) I just told them I am proposing to my GF – UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! So that was all lies, and get this, no mind you he had not seen her for over 6 months, HE COULD NOT EVEN GET IT UP TO HAVE SEX with her, said he was too tired, etc from the long trip so he was there a week very rested and all and she said there was NO SEX – NOW how is THAT for weird? There was no sex because that is NOT why he wanted her back, he just came to get his main dupe back, someone who put up with him, catered to him and was always at home for him. So when she dropped him off at the airport he actually FAKED his sadness Kelli, told her please come back home to me and started to FAKE SOB, as he gets in line for security he NEVER ONCE looked back at her as she stood there waiting to see him off, never waived, never looked up NOTHING! So he gets back home and what does the bastard do ? Ya you guessed it she key logged the pc and he is back to dating sites telling women he is looking for a long term relationship with marriage just Affter he left her saying he wanted to marry her and to come back home with me. Of COURSE she called him on it and he said, YOU LEFT ME, what am I supposed to do? She said, WHAT? You just proposed marriage to me and I was seriously going to come back to you and you are off F—ing others and pretending you are SINGLE as you profess your LOVE FOR ME? Before she called him on it she set up a fake profile of herself on the site he was on and she actually got his attention, he wanted to meet her, told her he was single, and looking for the right woman – So she outsmarted the psycho and saw a side of him she COULD NOT BELIEVE, the cheating side, the side the hidden life of what he was doing behind her back all those years. He never did find out it was HER for she canceled her profile and LET HIM GO she found her truth – she said to me once, I never ever knew him Linda, this man I loved so deeply I never never knew, like waking up and realize you were living with a total stranger. Guess what she does for a living? She is a private investigator – from this horrible experience she got her k
    license – she spent 4 years being an investigator in her relationship and she is very good at it.

    So Kelli where does that leave us ALL? The Other woman, the GF, the wife, whoever you are to them guess what we are ALL left with? We are left with mourning the “Idea relationship”. They are MASTERS of disguises, they are method actors, love frauds, love thieves, love junkies, sex addicts, sexual predators, liars, – they are as Gregory Peck states. THE PEOPLE OF THE LIE!!!!!

    x0 Linda

  177. Julian,

    Now THAT is the truth LOL! He’s VERY, VERY spoiled. He’s not loved just by me, but all of us. He’s a big part of our family. Life just wouldn’t be the same without him in it. I do believe pets have souls. They bond to us and we bond to them. Herc’s personality is hilarious. He is a great joy to us all. We also have a “chee wow wow” that I’m taking care of for my daughter as they moved into an apartment for a year with a no pet policy, so things do get a bit crazy around here with them both. Kel

  178. Linda.

    I go to another blog too where I see, hundreds of stories everyday. Women so stuck in cog/dis, caving, going back to their psychos…’s all I can do not to want to punch out their partners. Overdosed in oxytocin, they believe their ex’s now LOOOOOVE them so much. There is also anger in understanding it too, because I went back time and time and time again. It reinforces to me, the continued need for NC, my devotion to it, and my thankfulness that he is remarried.

    At the same time, I feel really sad when I read the stories you’re telling me here. I know they are helpful in that these women you know were duped big time, but the behaviors your ex and this woman’s ex exhibited were extremely either violent or sexually deviant to the max. I never got that or knew that about my ex. there was proof of nothing. He hid so well, there are many things I will never know, which, in some ways, keeps his good boy image there in my mind. I wish I had the proof of the extraordinary acting out that you both experienced. I didn’t. Only, knowingly and for sure, upon me. The poison container. I have to accept that there are things I will never know. The phone calls have stopped now, thank God! I just want him to leave me alone so that I can continue through the healing process, without any interference from him. I don’t want to care anymore what he does or doesn’t do. IN a small way, I can’t prove those calls are him, but I almost wish they were. Not because I’m delusional enough to believe that he loves and misses me (NOT!) but that it would be proof that he is as sick as he is. Who calls their ex when they’re newly married? Thanks for sharing your friends story. Kel 🙂

  179. Julian,

    I’m sorry I missed your above posts and Linda as well.

    I’m so sorry about your cat. I’d rather die than let go of my herc in that way if I had to do it. UGH! Giving a psychopath a pet would be distressing at best. I’m so sorry!!!!!!!

    Part of your post is funny though. You have a great way of bringing humor to the blog. Humor is so needed in my life. I love to laugh, and find myself laughing so little these days, but your posts, while some parts very sad, such as with your cat, the reasons she lured you and the way you stated it, hilarious. They are so ridiculous aren’t they?

    Linda, I find myself stuck at times. I almost wish mine were as deviously and deviantly as dumb. LOL! He probably is/was, but I just missed it, or as I think, he hid it very well. It’s a source of real pain for me, as it keeps that one tiny measure of cog/dis going in my mind. You’re growing leaps and bounds and are such a good forceful voice on the blog. I appreciate your posts very much. Kel

  180. Julian

    If you’re open to it, I sent Claudia a pick of herc to send to Linda, I could send through Claudia to send to you as well? Perhaps a pic back of your kitty?
    Claudia has a kitty that’s quite the diva! Kel

  181. Kelli: Even KNOWING what this woman experienced living with him I still felt rejected that he did not choose me to be with, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? Talk about Cog Dis, talk about the illusion… I would think but MINE is not as bad, or that way, surely he gives his GF SOMETHING better or she would not be there for 10 years!!! I think mine was just SMARTER and hid his other life from her better in either case but she could also have a disorder herself and she is too far gone to save herself from his illusion and lies. One thing is for certain she would not be with him if he DID NOT WANT HER, she is with him because he WANTS HER WITH HIM when they dont want you anymore they will throw you away like yesterdays garbage. So, she serves a purpose in his life and its NOT because he LOVES her she is there to play the role he needs her for period. Its really quite sad when you vision the picture she plays the wife, and partner she lives her life daily catering to him and in her mind is convinced she is in a committed relationship just as this other woman thought for 4 years it makes me SICK literally SICK to see what they do behind their partners backs and if I was a brave woman I would TELL HER what her so called boyfriend does in his hidden life but I have been though hell and back and I AM DONE I want no part of it and I dont care what fate awaits their future or hers, I simply cant – I know in my heart what he is and what he has done to her LONG before I entered the picture – he is older now and has probably slowed down in his predation to some extent her future will be with a man that will probably just masturbate to his perversion as her needs are ignored UGH she can have it all she may share his wealth but she will be very lonely inside.

    I am glad you were spared the horrible perversion the other woman was spared that also but she was not spared the other abuse he did to her the mind abuse, games, lies, …. In their old age I have read they are not very fun to have around when the looks start to age, and the penis doesnt work as it used to what DO THEY HAVE LEFT? SICK THOUGHTS I imagine who knows….. not a future I would care to have. I may be poor and lonely, but I escaped with my dignity I didnt lose everything as she has. Linda

  182. Julian I am glad Claudias cat is a diva because if a psychopath cat came along he would not like her, ha ha ha Psychos and DIVAS DO NOT get along!!!

  183. Linda,

    I’m poor too LOL. But I haven’t given up hope. I’d rather be poor and have the love I have than not have any at all. Money is only as good as what it can buy and then it gets old too. For if you don’t have love, you have nothing!!!! An old cliche but so true. Our society perpetuates this notion that having it all with monetary items and bank accounts is what makes one happy. the more the better. I don’t believe that although I wouldn’t denounce anyone who has been blessed by a lifetime of hard work. Psychopaths in jobs, don’t really do that either. I was amazed at what my ex would get away with at work.

    I grew up in a home that was higher class. you’ve heard the story before, so it’s not worth repeating, but my family was definitely not a happy one. Even with all the vacations, cars, swimming pool, nice house, clothes, blah blah blah……my father, himself a psychopath, was the most miserable of all human beings, even with money, and he made us all miserable too. I use to roll my eyes when my father brought home a new car after a couple of years or come home after school to another construction company inside our house doing yet another remodel.

    I like the peace I have now. Money can’t buy that, nor a life free from abuse. Kel

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