Psychopaths and Pathological Lying: Why Do Psychopaths Lie?

Psychopaths lie pathologically to others about pretty much everything:  their past, their present and their future. Whatever lies you discover about the psychopath in your life are likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. Be prepared for the sinking of the Titanic. He could be telling you, or his family, that he has one kind of job while having another kind or being unemployed. He could be saying that he’s rich while being dirt poor. He could be preaching trust and fidelity to you while pursuing dozens of other women. He could be telling you that his partner is cold, frigid and uninterested in working on their relationship when he’s the one who neglects her, plays hot-cold games to manipulate her and does everything possible to violate her trust and undermine her confidence and well-being. He could be telling you that he’s looking for a job in your area, to be together, while leaving his options open and seeking employment all over the country, to separate you from your family and friends. He could be saying that he had no affairs while playing semantic games, since in his mind, all those other women were only friends with benefits. He could be telling you his ex cheated on him or left him, when he’s the one who cheated on every woman he’s ever been with, not just once, but innumerable times, and broke up with them after having used them. More ominously, he could be presenting himself as a decent person while secretly committing fraud, serial rape or even murder. What you don’t know about him, along with the false information he offers you, can and will hurt you. He’s got no friends, just people he uses and alibis for his lies. Lying feeds his underlying narcissism. Distorting other people’s perception of reality gives him the false sense of being smarter than them.

Since psychopaths wallow in seediness, cruelty and perversion, they enjoy not only lying, but also waving their lies under the noses of the people they dupe. They leave little trophies of their infidelities lying around, like a shampoo bottle or trinkets from their girlfriends. When they’re questioned about them by their partner, they get the additional thrill of offering a false explanation. You’ve no doubt heard of psychopathic serial killers who take objects from their victims, such as a bracelet, ring or a lock of hair, as “trophies,” to remind them of their criminal exploits. Signs of betrayal represent the sex addict’s little trophies. Such disordered individuals also enjoy living on the edge. Just as serial killers often play cat and mouse games with the media and the police, so philandering psychopaths play games of catch-me-if-you-can with their spouses and girlfriends. They may be sitting across from their wife on the computer and sending sexually explicit messages to a girlfriend, while claiming to be doing work or looking up some innocuous information. They may be in a hotel with a girlfriend while having a lengthy phone conversation with their wife. They may take a call from one girlfriend while being on a date with another and telling her that it’s a business call.

Psychopaths enjoy lying both because of the power it gives them over others and because of the risk of getting caught. The problem remains, of course, that the risk is always minimal and therefore never quite thrilling enough. To take a real risk in life, one has to value something or someone, so that one fears losing that thing or that person. Psychopaths can’t value anything but their immediate appetites and anyone but themselves. If they lose their jobs, there’s always another one just as good (even when there isn’t). If they lose their money, they can always mooch off or scam someone else. If they alienate their partner, there’s lots of other fish in the sea. Since the stakes are always so low for psychopaths, their thrills are also very fleeting.

Lying makes them feel more powerful and superior to others. Needless to say, in reality, engaging in deception and manipulation are not a sign of excess of intelligence. They’re a symptom of lack of character. Psychopathic dictators such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Ceausescu weren’t particularly bright individuals. They were just particularly manipulative, opportunistic and ruthless. But it’s no use trying to persuade a psychopath that he’s much less, rather than more, than the people he dupes. Once you see through his lack of character, his reactions also become transparent. When he gets away a lie, he feels a cheap thrill.  When caught in a lie, he feels no shame. He simply covers it up with another lie or, when that’s not an option, blames you for his wrongdoing or accuses you of behaving in the same manner. Often, even when psychopaths believe that they’re telling the truth, they’re in fact lying. A psychopath can “sincerely” state that he’s being faithful to you right before his date with another woman. Psychopaths live in an Orwellian doublethink world. They believe the truth of the moment while actively seeking new opportunities. We might as well call it a “psychopath-think,” since such individuals have their own language.

For example, to a psychopathic seducer, “I love you” means “You give me a rush at this moment.” “You love me” translates as “you forgo your needs to bend to my will.” “Trust me” means “What a sucker!” “You’re the woman of my life,” translates into “You’re one of a long, indefinite sequence of women that’s also simultaneous” (Psychopaths have their own version of math as well). “Mutual fidelity” means “you need to be faithful to me while I cheat on you.” “Betrayal” means “You dared disapprove of something I did” or “You disobeyed me in some respect.” “Mutual commitment” translates into “You need to revolve everything in your life only around me while I do exactly what I want.” “Honesty” means “My truth,” or “Saying whatever gets me what I want at the moment.” “I miss you” means “I miss the function you played in my life because I’m a little bored right now.” “What my Baby wants, my Baby gets” means “I’ll give you attention, flattery and gifts only until I hook you emotionally and gain your trust. Afterwards, Mazeltov Baby! You’re on your own.” “I cheat because my wife/girlfriend doesn’t satisfy me” means “…and neither will you, in a few months, at most.” “We belong together” means “I own you completely while I remain free.” “If anything happens between us, it won’t be because of me” means “Nothing’s ever my fault. If I do something harmful, it’s because you (and others) weren’t good enough for me.” Unless you learn to decipher the psychopathic code, you’re likely to be “lost in translation.” If I put my mind to it, I could write a whole dictionary of “psychopath-speak” and its translation into regular human language.

Every so-called “truth” psychopaths utter is momentary and contingent upon their immediate gratification. Since their feelings are shallow, so is their truth-value. If you add “for now” to their declarations of love, they may sometimes ring plausible. For instance, during the euphoric seduction phase, psychopaths may believe when they tell a girlfriend that they love her and want to spend the rest of their life with her. But their passion isn’t grounded in any empathy, love or commitment. Since the euphoric state of “being in love” comes and goes even during the course of a single day, so does the truth-value of their statement. One minute they might tell a girlfriend with genuine emotion that they love her and will always be faithful to her. The next hour they might be pursuing another woman, just for the heck of it, because they’re bored. While psychopaths scheme and manipulate a lot, they’re short-term, or tactical, schemers. They can’t see more than two steps ahead of their noses, to chase the next temporary pleasure. Tactics, or short-term maneuvers, prove to be far less effective than strategy, or long-term planning, however. Over the long-term, the lives of psychopaths usually unravel in a sequence of failed careers, sordid crimes and disastrous relationships. While this fact doesn’t particularly bother the psychopaths themselves, who live by a Dionysian hedonism, it bothers quite a lot everyone who comes into close contact with them.

To explain further why and how psychopaths lie so glibly and compulsively, I’ll rely upon Dr. Susan Forward‘s When your lover is a liar. Her book addresses all kinds of liars. However, she devotes one chapter in particular to psychopaths. She describes this group as the most dangerous and predatory kind of liars. She also confirms that they’re the only ones who are completely unchangeable.  Psychopaths tell harmful lies, not mere white lies.  The lies that harm us, either by omission or by commission, involve the intent to deceive. Forward defines a harmful lie as a “deliberate and conscious behavior that either misrepresents important facts or conceals and withholds them in order to keep you from knowing the truth about certain facets of your partner’s past, present, and, often, future.” (When your lover is a liar, 6) She goes on to explain that when a man lies about important matters related to his identity, actions and intentions, certain implications follow: 1) he becomes the sole proprietor of the truth; 2) he acquires control over events in his partner’s life; 3) those he dupes lack important information that can drastically influence their lives; 4) consequently, those he dupes can’t make major life decisions based on this information, including whether or not to stay with him, and 5) most importantly, those he dupes don’t know who he really is. (16)

Psychopaths typically deny or minimize their deception once it’s discovered. This strategy, Forward maintains, constitutes a power game which has several negative implications for the person being duped: 1) she didn’t see what she saw; 2) she didn’t hear what she heard; 3) she doesn’t know what she found out; 4) she’s exaggerating, imagining things or being paranoid; 5) in holding the liar accountable for his deception, she’s the one creating problems in their relationship; 6) she’s to blame for the deception or her partner’s misbehavior; 7) other people, who are exposing the psychopath’s lies, are creating trouble in their relationship. (When your lover is a liar, 16) These techniques of denying and compounding the lies relate to “gaslighting.” They lead the victim to feel like she’s “going crazy” and imagining things that don’t exist or aren’t true. Gaslighting turns reality topsy-turvy. It replaces truth with falsehood. It also shifts the balance of power between the honest person and the liar. The liar takes charge of the relationship and of his honest partner’s perception of reality.

Given that, as we’ve seen so far, harmful lies constitute a power game, it’s not that surprising that psychopaths, who live to dominate and manipulate others, end up being the most irredeemable pathological liars of the human species. As mentioned, Forward devotes an entire chapter to psychopathic liars. By way of contrast to the rest of her book, which focuses on how to improve relationships tainted by deception, in this case she advises people to leave their psychopathic partners for good. She states,

“This chapter is about scorpions in human form, and continuous, remorseless lying is what they do. They lie to the women they’re with, and to just about everyone else. They cheat repeatedly on the women they’re married to, they steal from the woman they profess their love for. Their greatest thrill, their greatest high, is pulling the wool over the eyes of the women who love and trust them, and they do it without a moment of concern for their targets. This chapter is about the one kind of liar you must leave immediately. It is about sociopaths.” (When your lover is a liar, 66)

Forward goes on to explain that since psychopaths regard life as a power game, they suffer from an incurable addiction to deception as a way of life. All the experts on psychopathy and sociopathy state that such individuals lie even when the truth would make them look better or would sound more plausible.  In addition, unlike normal human beings, psychopaths don’t change their deceitful ways. The simple and short explanation for why not is that they don’t want to change and aren’t even capable of changing. As we’ve seen, psychopaths lack the emotional and moral incentives that motivate normal people to improve themselves. No matter how much suffering they cause others and no matter how much they, themselves, get into trouble as a result of their lies, psychopaths remain pathological liars and frauds throughout their lives.

Forward breaks down the main reasons why psychopaths don’t change their fraudulent ways1) they don’t experience the pain and shame that motivates people to become honest; 2) they don’t play by the rules and thus they never feel that they’ve done something wrong; 3) they lack the emotional depth to want to improve their character; 4) in their relentless search for excitement, they live to break, not follow, moral and social rules; 5) they believe that they’re superior to those they dupe. (When your lover is a liar, 71) I would add one more related point to this list: 6) they believe that the rest of humanity is just like them, i.e., manipulative and deceitful, only less intelligent or less adept at it than they are. Forward concludes that if anybody tells you a psychopath can become an honest, loyal and faithful individual, they’re lying to you. Which is also why the person most likely to tell someone such a lie is the psychopath himself: especially if he still has something to gain from his target.


  1. Anthony, Susan Forward’s book about lying is excellent, but most of it doesn’t focus
    on sociopaths (who are incorrigible pathological liars) but rather on your run-of-the-mill liars,
    whose behavior can improve with effort.

  2. I have same experience with you. even i have the proof of his cheating and show him in front of his face, he grind at me with a cunning smile, told me that, you should go to see doctor, you have mental problem. P/S i have left him, of course gone through lot of suffering for year.

  3. Ling, psychopaths have no real concept of truth and falsehood. To them both are instrumental to get them what they want at the moment. That’s why they constantly switch gears from truth to lying. They lie to your face without any signs of lying because to them truth has no real meaning. Just an instrumental one: they sometimes say truthful things if it hurts others, to gain credibility or to manipulate people. None of these are noble goals of course. Claudia

  4. Excellent post claudia, I know how they love to keep little trophies LOL My ex had one which I asked that they return. A crystal heart. He blamed his four year old son for breaking it when it was supposed to be “hidden” away from prying eyes. You’ve inspired me to do a little video post on “psycospeak” and the kind of crap they come up with. I’ll send you a link when its done 😉

  5. […] reading Claudia Moscovoci’s excellent article this morning on “Why Psychopaths lie” I decided to do an article explaining the crazy making ways in which psychopaths lie and […]

  6. Hi Claudia, I decided to write a post instead. x Sarah

  7. Claudia,

    This is another excellent article and an important one given what the discussions have been lately. I’m glad you integrated Susan Forwards words from her book about the exception being sociopaths. I hadn’t all of the book, but this part I did not see. The lies, from beginning to end, are what hurt so much in getting over the psychopath. As they say, “If his lips are moving, he’s lying!”

  8. What amazes me the most is that even the people responsible for protecting the public ignore evidence that prove that they are lying.

    In my case, I informed the Virginia Racing Commission, that my ex-wife and her father (a convicted felon), had conspired to have her obtain a license so that her father could circumvent the licensing restrictions preventing a felon from participating in the sport.

    The Virginia racing license was given irrefutable evidence that Pete Scamardo was a convicted felon and witnesses that confirm that his daughter, Dina Mackney, knew that he was a convicted felon. The Virginia Racing Commission wrote back that ‘our investigation revealed no evidence to support your accusations’.

    Psychopaths know and count on other people not holding them accountable. For the people asked to look at the lies and manipulation, it is easier for them to simply ignore the evidence rather than face the truth.

    My question for the victims of psychopaths is what should be done? What help is needed? Education and awareness has done very little to protect us.

    The psychological and legal communities have done nothing to implement safeguards or procedures to protect itself or the public from their lies. There are no consequences for Judges or psychologists that have been fooled by psychopaths. In fact, they will actually protect the psychopath, rather than admit they were fooled by them.

    What solutions should be implemented to help victims?

  9. Chris,

    Whenever I hear things like this, it makes me want to pursue law. It’s very frustrating and disheartening to see any psychopath get away with what they do, but they inevitably do under most circumstances. It is however, more disgusting within the realms of the legal system. I know. I was burned by one too. Kel

  10. Good post too, Sarah!

  11. Excellent post.AND IMPORTANT.

    I was being gaslighted and didn’t know it of course. He tried to convince me I had broken off a rare get together when he had done so. The most I could admit to was that maybe the phone connection had not been clear. I remember being so puzzled about how we had so miscommunicated, because I KNEW I had not cancelled. Now of course I know he was gaslighting me….and thinking himself so clever.

    The facts about how much he lied, particularly by omission, didn’t become clear to me until I went no contact (now years ago). Every once in a great while something will remind me of an incident and a NEW revelation hits me after all these years…”OMG…that was a lie too”.

    Accepting the truth that he was the lie from hello to goodbye (as Gallager (sp?) states), was the hardest part for me. Funny, when I knew how many other people he was lying to, that I would assume he was telling me the truth! LOL!

    It takes very little skill to lie. Because the vast majority of people are honest, trusting folks who don’t expect someone to tell a completely outrageous and bold face lie. So no skill needed, really, to dupe people.

    Remember Casey Anthony saying “I’m such a good liar!”. Nope, she just was talking to normal trusting people.

    I quit undercover work because after I understood what p’s are, I didn’t think it healthy for me to lie and I didn’t think it healthy for me to be exposed to more trauma and cruelty, and almost everyone I was documenting was a p and it wasn’t that good for me to be in such contact with them. BUT….from that work, I can assure you it takes NO skill to lie….it is just acting, without having to memorize any lines. Because they were p’s, some were suspicious, but all you have to do is be so into the role that even your unconscious body language does not give you away when you see them do something vile and cruel. I think I could do it well, because as a child I had to act…growing up with a p mom, I could not be who I really was. And I had learned to disassociate, so I disconnect from my feelings when faced with horror almost automatically. Only once did I disassociate and then never recall the details in full…and that when I was attacked and raped while babysitting when 12. But I still remembered enough to know what happened…..just the feelings were not there. But, with that one exception, unllike a p, my true feelings and reactions come flooding back in within 3-4 days of a horror and I was always a wreck then. I knew any undercover job was going to mean me having a breakdown for about a week, sooner or later! And flashbacks the rest of my life.

    For a p, there is none of that.

  12. So sorry you had to go through that suffering. But that capacity for suffering also is the same capacity for experiencing great joy….something your cheating man will never experience, no matter what.

    I hope you find that joy within you again soon. I truly think it is the finest human beings who are hurt so awfully by these monsters. Your light will shine again!

  13. Claudia, welcome back and I hope your voyage home went well. I have started reading your book; I can recall the news footage re the diabolical orphanage conditions but i was not aware of the political and economical machinations that gave rise to such horrific and inhumane conditions.
    Sarah, your article captures the impact of being gaslighted by psychopaths, borderlines, and narcissists. I think Claudia’s statement re their inability to know the difference between truth and falsehood captures the essence of pathological lieing that comes so naturally and reflexively to a psychopath. I also love the black hole metaphor above; the narcissistic gravitational pull of their empty void is so absolute that no light escapes beyond their event horizon. They can neither see nor feel another. Psychopaths can and do rewrite reality, and us, in any which way they choose, that accomadates their own deluded world / self view. There can never be any consensual reality with a cluster b psychopathic individual, because there can never be a relationship. They mirror, mimic, emulate, morph, and confabulate; but there lack of self always reveals itself in the end. Michael.

  14. Susan,

    RE: Your above post. OMG how I so relate to dissociation. I had to do that OFTEN as a child, as i was molested over and over, during a four year period. Like you, if exposed to trauma, I have a delayed reaction because of dissociation and that makes so much sense.

    Regarding your ex p and the lies that come to you later. Isn’t that strange how that happens? Recently, one of the lies he told me, came to me in a flashback. The story he told me about this certain situation was a complete and utter LIE. It was going through some photos of his prior to our breakup that had me recalling the lie he told and the representation of the photograph I saw that said it was a lie. I wonder how many more lies I was told. The more I think about it, the angrier I feel. Kel

  15. Thanks Kelli, it is validating to read that you have a delayed reaction too. I’m so sorry you were molested, no child should have to go through that. You are a strong woman! To come through that with the loving heart you have is a huge accomplishment.

    Yup, I can still get a flash of anger too, but I’m trying to turn it into more of a “ugh…what a creep” feeling. I always wondered why he was friends with creeps….now I know. He’s a creep too!

  16. Hello Everyone: Sorry I have not contributed sooner but I was on a 4 day vacation visiting my husbands family out of state. It was good to get away and experience new things. I have also been pretty absorbed with Thomas Sheridan and have almost completed all of his documentaries and interviews.

    Yes indeed, the pathological lying; they not only lie with omission but with a blink of an eye followed by a smile and a sigh and let us not forget the “smirk” as the give you the knife in the back. I have often asked myself why I would want to communicate with ANYONE that lied to me in the manner my x-path did. Would I tolerate this from a friend? I would either tell her to get help for this or I could not continue our friendship based on LIES. So why was it so different with the path. Towards the end I ALWAYS KNEW when he was lying and when he wasn’t lying, it was truth mixed in with lies, that was the best he could do. I know this article is about their lying but if I may I would like to embark upon TRUTH, MY truth that is. I lived a lie in a relationSHIT with this man for almost 5 years, I dont even know if you could call it a relationSHIT, it was more of a long distance mind torture and when he sensed I was pulling away he would see me in person to inject me with some of his lethal and deadly charm; I would then return home with the illusion of what I THOUGHT he was wishing I could share my life with him; fantasizing and living in PURE TORTURE AND HELL about what I THOUGHT I was missing. I will never sort out ALL of his lies (that would be a waste of my precious life) but I have reached the other side – I am on the side of TRUTH and PEACE I no longer view him as a human being, I no longer even put a name with who he was because to me he was just a psychopath who targeted me and he will always remain just that.

    Thomas Sheridan made me realize something in one of his interviews on Spiritual Recovery in where he describes how the victims of psychopaths experience a type of transformation in their recovery – when you have seen PURE EVIL to this extent and have been at the GATES OF HELL there is no place else to go but UP, because the psychopath took you to such a LOW in your life. I have gained so much from this experience because I SEE the bigger picture. I certainly don’t need some reptilian eyed person who has no conscience or inner compass influencing my thoughts. In some respects I no longer even take it personally that he devalued me, its just what they do and there is no truth in ANYTHING they say or do. He promised me the world – IT WAS A LIE, He professed his undying love for me – IT WAS A LIE, He wanted to spend his life with me – IT WAS A LIE, He called me a whore – IT WAS A LIE – do you see where I am going with this? EVERYTHING good or bad he said about me was a lie – there is a reason they call it PATHOLOGICAL LYING.

    I am staying on the side of TRUTH and even though it still hurts that I was targeted by a psychopath, I am a better person because of it!! x0x0 Linda

  17. Linda,

    I’m so pleased to hear that you’ve been watching sheridan’s stuff! It really does help. I think because I have ADD, the auditory stuff hits me more than just reading, although I soak up all I read and the blog too, but you can be doing whatever around the house and listen over and over and over again and it begins to sink in. If I had a way to put his interviews on an I-pod I would! LOL!
    You’re really beginning to see what your ex is. In thinking about the abuse, it’s not just what they DO, it’s what they ARE. One of the things that this blog, sheridan’s videos, etc, have taught me is to find the definition of each of the words that are used so often about psychopathy, including, but not limited too, pathological lying. For some reason, just the definitions put a whole new spin on things.

    I’m so glad you enjoyed your time away! Keep plugging away Linda. You’re getting it! Kel HUGS

  18. Susan,

    Mine was friends with creeps too. Alcoholics. They also had money. He loved to associate with money. Well, now with rich one, he’s in a whole new ball field, having lots of money to spend, he’s right up there with the Jones’s alcoholic rich guy across the street!

    Anger……..yea. I don’t think I’ve hit that part yet. Or is it rage? The delayed reactions always frightened me. I could be perfectly calm, then a few days later, a mess? Now I know what it is. I’m so glad you wrote that Susan, because it makes a lot of sense! It also helps me to define my triggers better. Kel

  19. Kelli: You were so correct in your advise; read, study, until you GET IT, until you see them as psychopaths and NOT a person or human; and really they are NOT human – I slept with a warm living breathing body but there was NOTHING inside this person, he was dead. The reason they do what they do is because of what they ARE, and it wasnt personal it was business this is how psychopaths conduct their lives and their personal business, its all the same. It makes no difference who and what you are one compassionate giving person is just like the next to them. Lets see what I can suck out of this person, or that person. I also think of the terms associated with this disorder; predation, gas lighting, mirroring, projection, and your more common terms such as betrayal, deceit, perversion, love bombing, etc… If you stop to think about all of these words you can see why there is damage from association with them – NOT a pretty picture and these are NOT pretty words we are saying. I spent DAYS with Thomas Sheridan and his special talent he has reaching out to others in making them understand WHAT and WHO they are and once you GET IT the COG DIS subsides GREATLY and you stop the mental torment you see the truth and the light and you get the bigger picture in why this happened to you.

    Ok Kelli NOW ask me how I feel about the OTHER WOMAN? Go ahead, ask me, see if I pass the test……. What I feel for her is PURE PITY and I see myself as having reached the side of TRUTH that is the only way I can describe it, she is just another person who is compassionate and caring for him to exploit. I on the other hand was a target that WON in the end, in all his EVIL skills he was NOT ABLE to reduce me to what he has reduced her to. I found MY WAY out of the clutches of a pathological person I AM FREE from his EVIL and SICKNESS and it feels pretty overwhelming at times. I know call him THE BUG EYED REPTILIAN PREDATOR, ha ha ha and to think I thought he had plastic surgery because he has no crows feet around his eyes, ha ha ha x0x0x0 Linda How have YOU been doing in your stage of recovery?

  20. Linda,

    So happy to hear this!

    And this is where I had hoped you would come to in your recovery. It’s nice to feel that way isn’t it? Freeing…:)

    Admittedly, since you asked the question, I’ve hit a snag in my recovery. I’m somewhat upset about it and not sure how to stop the intrusive thoughts again. I was on another blog and there was a big disruption about the OW and her role. I stopped blogging there.

    So I’m dealing with that issue especially right now.

    Also, I had a series of phone calls over a month that rattled me. One time, I was so irritated by it, I had my son pick it up and this person hung up on him. It developed into a pattern. Then last week, it abruptly stopped. I’m not sure it was him, but I had this feeling about it. It has caused me a lot of pain and anger. Now it has me thining about he and his new wife alot. I’m now wondering if maybe when a pathological gets his new wife after the lure AND has access to a ton of her money, what would be the incentive to abuse her? I cant see that there would be any. This is what he’s always wanted, free money and sex. Now he has that. This has really created a lot of self worth issues for me which need to be purged in therapy today. It is causing me a lot of grief because my grasp on his having a personality disorder is gone and I’m projecting lovey dovey NORMAL behavior into that marriage, which is killing me. All about money. He has supply coming out of his ass. Why NOT be nice? Is this where it stops for a psychopath? Do they have reasons to be nice to the woman that is giving them access to her bank accounts? I wonder.

    Back to the phone calls. I believe it was him. I can’t say why I believe that, but in all the time I’ve had my phone, I’ve not encountered this. The number read as “unavailable” and if it was someone else, the calls were way too patterned out. I can’t explain that. ANyway, if it was him, he was trying to disrupt my life. I was a poison container for ten years. He was able to abuse me more than any of his wives. And I allowed this. And I mean incredible emtional/sexual/psychological abuse and coercion. I’m angry about that disruption. I did not respond at all to any of those calls and so just like it was in the relationshit, it’s the SILENT treatment. So many mindfucking games. I’m so tired of it.

    On top of all of this, my dog continues to go down hill.

    I just want this to stop and to get back on track, because right now, I’m back to thinking he’s happy, is not a psychopath, just wanted something different and money and consistent sex makes all the difference. I cannot see how abuse would be possible of her when so much is at stake and he’s now got everything he wants. Kel

  21. Today in the car, I heard an oldie…have to post the lyrics here.

    Smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend
    Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth uh
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    The truth is in the eyes
    Cause the eyes don’t lie, amen

    Remember a smile is just
    A frown turned upside down
    My friend let me tell you
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth, uh
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof

    Beware, beware of the handshake
    That hides the snake
    I’m telling you beware
    Beware of the pat on the back
    It just might hold you back
    Jealousy (jealousy)
    Misery (misery)
    Envy I tell you, you can’t see behind smiling faces
    Smiling faces sometimes they don’t tell the truth
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    (Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
    (Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)

    I’m telling you beware, beware of the handshake
    That hides the snake
    Listen to me now, beware
    Beware of that pat on the back
    It just might hold you back
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    Your enemy won’t do you no harm
    Cause you’ll know where he’s coming from
    Don’t let the handshake and the smile fool ya
    Take my advice I’m only try’ to school ya

  22. Smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend
    Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth uh
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    The truth is in the eyes
    Cause the eyes don’t lie, amen

    Remember a smile is just
    A frown turned upside down
    My friend let me tell you
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth, uh
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof

    Beware, beware of the handshake
    That hides the snake
    I’m telling you beware
    Beware of the pat on the back
    It just might hold you back
    Jealousy (jealousy)
    Misery (misery)
    Envy I tell you, you can’t see behind smiling faces
    Smiling faces sometimes they don’t tell the truth
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    (Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
    (Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)

    I’m telling you beware, beware of the handshake
    That hides the snake
    Listen to me now, beware
    Beware of that pat on the back
    It just might hold you back
    Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
    They don’t tell the truth
    Smiling faces, smiling faces
    Tell lies and I got proof
    Your enemy won’t do you no harm
    Cause you’ll know where he’s coming from
    Don’t let the handshake and the smile fool ya
    Take my advice I’m only try’ to school ya

  23. Susan

    Wow. I remember when this song came out UGH! It’s a good one, so funny, cuz as I was reading the music was playing in my head. Kel

  24. I’m so discouraged. I don’t think this therapist is going to work out. She’s really good, but for all she knows about the disordered one’s, she isn’t into discussing it with me at all. Today it was: You need to get over this. And I’d not said but just a few words about my ex at all. I don’t feel the pathology part of it is important. I went into some very deep details of my past about my father and family, and how pathological they all are. No reaction. She did not invite me to discuss how the pathology affected me. She terms things as if this is a commonality, rather than the disaster it really is. This is my third therapist. I’m so frustrated with all of this right now. I can’t go into my past with someone who doesn’t WANT to discuss the pathology element, nor with someone who won’t validate the experience as the pathological mess it was. On the way home, I was so frustrated and feeling so angry! How are survivors expected to heal when you don’t have therapists who will go to lengths to discuss pathology and my background is FULL of it. It’s almost taboo in the field of psychology. This HAS to change. It just HAS to change! Kel

  25. kelli I have a few minutes to comment on these intrusive thoughts you are having. So do you think he grew a conscience now that he seems to have everything he ever wanted that being money and sexual contentment? I dont think psychopathy works that way kelli and lets just say he is not a full blown psychopath he is just a MAJOR ASSHOLE then what? You are much too fine of a person for any human to have treated you as their “poison container” and so was I if indeed mine was just a full blown asshole jerk. Psychopaths dont have to have a reason to abuse you Kelli, they abuse because its what they LOVE TO DO; he isnt going to play his destruction game with her NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE LOVEY DOVEY but because she has something he wants and needs and thats when they are the nicest to you. I always knew my x path was up to something if he was being nice I thought OH OH he is planning something to side track me. So bare these things in mind. I saw your x as having TOTAL lack of remorse in what he did to you and thats a huge red flag and an arrow that points in the direction of a psychopath just because he wasnt a pervert doesnt mean anything, I got to experience that special little extra sick behavior mine had, it was the cherry on top let me tell ya what a treat (NOT!!!!)

    Sorry but I rank yours worse than just your average asshole – there are different degrees of this disorder as well, mine was in the middle according to my counselor, geez I would hate to see worse maybe that would be your serial killer no doubt. Just my 2 centsw to think about x0x0 linda

  26. WOW, Susan! I think you just put everything I ever experienced with my ex into words…and more. It’s all the more interesting that I also never realized how much he was “gaslighting” me until we had been apart (read: NO CONTACT) for at least a year. They are absolute puppet masters…skillful manipulators.

    Claudia – would you ever be willing to blog about psycho/sociopaths, and toxic family members…??? Not sure if anyone else shared the experience…but I was sickened when I realized that some of my ex’s family members and close friends were cronies in his awful game. I’m sure they were also victims (to some extent) of his manipulation and lies…but, I can’t help to feel as though their involvement kept me tied up in the relationship. I think this is also a very important issue to address…

  27. Linda,

    I cannot live knowing he is happy with her, and nice to her after what he’s done to me. He has treated every woman who was his wife far better than he ever treated me. I was a worthless piece of shit. That’s all. The consensus is that, yes, sadly, he can be happy if he’s getting what he wants. I can’t live with that. I misread the whole thing. I didn’t deserve what he did to me. But maybe I did after all. Maybe he just needed something more. I now feel I’ll never heal from this. Kel

  28. Kelli,

    Maybe try to find a therapist who does EMDR therapy. You HAVE to go over past traumas with this. I was told by several therapists that I should really do it. If I lived close to a therapist I would, but I’d have to drive 2 hours each way. Just not possible right now. But I think it might really help.

  29. Susan

    Guess what? She specializes in EMDR THERAPY! UGH! I’m going to have to look again. This just isn’t working out. At this point, I dont even CARE about EMDR therapy, I CARE about dealing with my family core issues and getting to the bottom of it. IT’s the ONLY way out, Susan! I’m SO FRUSTRATED! Kel

  30. Kel,

    You know that is not true.

    The p I was involved with treated his wife better than me…of course! She is an heiress, with hands still on the money strings. But “better” still sounded like HELL to me, even though it was TONS better than he treated me.

    As far as HIS “happiness”, I truly believe they AREN’T happy, except fleetingly. My p mom could be happy during an extravagant birthday party thrown for her….but the next day say things like “Back to dullsville” and mope around.

    And even when fleetingly happy, it is more like “glee”…look at what I’ve got everyone doing, look at what I can buy, look at everyone being scammed by me, look at me bossing everyone….and that kind of glee doesn’t last long.

    It is not the kind of happiness you feel, for example, when you see your dog doing well, or your children having fun.

    Their mother is not a piece of sh*t and you know it.

    You didn’t misread it…he misled you for the thrill of it. You were emotionally raped by a deformed man who couldn’t be happy if his life depended on it. He can act.

    You weren’t to blame for what happened to you when you were a child, nor are you to blame for being emotionally raped!

  31. Arggh. I have an idea…I will email you .

  32. Oh…and this article might help.

  33. Kel, I agree with Susan! Besides, they don’t always treat the wife better. My ex didn’t; he treated me far “better” but that’s because we only had a honeymoon phase, then the gig was up, and it was over. But they never really treat anyone well
    because they are usurious and heartless. Being used, if you are a rich wife, isn’t the same thing as being loved. Claudia

  34. Kel, I hope you’ll find a good therapist who knows about personality disorders and is willing to treat victims. I can’t really understand why a therapist who is well-informed about psychopathy would not want to treat the trauma of the victim. Claudia

  35. Kel, the incentive to abuse others for no good reason, and even when it’s counterproductive, lies at the core of psychopathy. It’s a personality disorder, not rational behavior. Claudia

  36. Michael, I just got back from my book launch in Romania tonight: very positively impressed with the country as it is now (compared to how it was then) and exhausted, I might add. But I did program the psychopathy article for while I was away, so the blog could continue as usual even in my absence. I like your analogy to physics and the void of narcissism and fully agree with it. Claudia

  37. Sarah, I look forward to the link to your article. Claudia

  38. Claudia,

    RE; Therapist.

    I don’t know what her deal is, but I suspect it’s about approach. Hers is very cognitive behavioral and while that works in many cases it does NOT work with those who have grown up in pathological environments or experiences pathological love relationships. It doesn’t work. I’ll do the right thing by letting her know this and moving on. Kel

  39. Susan

    Thank you. Today was a really bad, really triggering day.

    I appreciate your encouragement and putting me back to square. You’re right. I have great friends here. I feel much calmer tonight, but exhausted. I know what I need to do to move past this. Thanks again for your support and care. Kel

  40. Chris, I understand and sympathize with your frustrations in trying to bring a psychopath’s fraudulent activities to light. It’s so hard to do because (1) most people and organizations are unaware of psychopaths and what they are capable of, and (2) most psychopaths are experts at covering their tracks and convincing everyone else that they are model citizens. If you try to make an accusation against a psychopath, you’ll find a dozen people staring at you in disbelief and then staunchly supporting him/her, leaving you looking like a fool. Sad, but true.

    Unfortunately, I don’t believe we’re anywhere near a point yet where we can implement any workable solutions to protect organizations against psychopaths. They treat organizations just like people: they “work” them and use them and bleed them for all they’re worth. Education will undoubtedly lead to awareness which will eventually lead to solutions to protect our organizations from psychopaths. But we’re not there yet, and all we can do is to work towards it.

    In my opinion, the best thing to do is to cut your losses, walk away from the psychopath and never look back. Anything connected with the psychopath is always going to be a losing situation for you and “no contact” really means “no further losses.” You just have to walk away from any expectations of closure, justice or revenge.

    Even when someone named Scam-ardo is involved. 🙂 (that made me smile because my ex-girl-fiend was of Italian descent also. Maybe one day we’ll be able to detect psychopathy through DNA testing.) – Julian.

  41. Kelli, I get the feeling that our exes were actually somewhat similar, and I have a theory regarding why yours treated you the way he did and why he appears to be “happy” now.

    My ex was most interested in four things: (1) control over me, (2) my money, (3) sex, and (4) fancy diversions (e.g. expensive restaurants, tropical vacations, weekends at the Jersey Shore, etc.). If I ever failed to supply and/or go along with any of these, I would be instantly punished with abuse.

    My ex was never really happy in the 18 months we were together, even when she was getting all of the above. The closest she ever got to was “grudgingly content” — i.e. “I deserve better, but this will do for now.” As long as she was grudgingly content, there was no abuse at all, and in fact, she was quite nice to me.

    Your ex was clearly obsessed with control and sex, and while he got that from you, he didn’t get money. So I think he punished you for that. Not consciously, of course, but somewhere deep in his twisted mind something drove him to abuse you because you didn’t have loads of free cash for him. Now that he’s married a wealthy woman, he has “all of the above,” abuse is unnecessary (at least for now) and he’s “grudgingly content” (please don’t mistake that for happiness!).

    And never forget that HE is the worthless piece of shit here, no matter how it might look right now. – Julian.

  42. Claudia,

    Excellent response to my post above. I think I’ll put it on a post it note 🙂 Kel

  43. Julian, a very insightful observation! In general, psychopaths feel entitled to everything they want. They feel they deserve “the best” regardless of how badly they treat others. Claudia

  44. Kelli, there’s no point wasting your time, her time or health insurance money if the therapy isn’t helpful, for whatever reason. Claudia

  45. Kelli, I understand your frustration. I have tried three therapist. On the drive there I was excited, thinking OK maybe this one will help me understand and help regain what I have lost. But nope each time on the drive home I actually have felt I’ve taken a step backwards instead of forwards. Very frustrating. You arrive with hope only to leave with more frustration and less money in your pocket.

  46. Kelli: I will never know how he treats his GF he may treat her like a queen for all I know (but knowing him a drag queen ha) regardless, I dont care how he treats her what I DO CARE about is how he treated ME which I DID NOT deserve as well as you. He doesnt treat her better he just ACTS for her better pretending to be the loving attentive husband/partner which is such a total lie its not even funny. Kelli you NEVER for one second deserved to be someone’s poison container for their toxic waste and either did I; just the fact alone they need this is a clue something is VERY VERY wrong with them that we were their dumping grounds for their disorder and sick abuse. Sorry Kelli but this behavior is STILL within them even though they may never let their wives see this side, WE DID and its NOT because we ever lacked anything Kelli its strictly because of what they are. They are nothing but frauds, fakes, liars, – release these thoughts Kelli because they will always find someone else to be their poison containers and they will always keep their partners and wives living under nothing but an illusion. Dont ever underestimate what a disturbed person he was – leave the sick SOB to his “happiness” (but if he is a true psychopath they dont have emotions of happiness) but call it what you want leave him to his FAKED happiness (sounds soooo much better) We extracted their toxins from our lives dont pollute your mind with these grandioso thoughts that he is off in happy la la land – NOT POSSIBLE with these types. They always have the need to hunt for someone they can destroy – x0x0 Linda

  47. Gary,

    How are things for you? I’ve not seen you post much? It is very frustrating. Thankfully, I have insurance, however, I think to really get the right treatment, it will mean something out of pocket for me, which I don’t really have. I don’t want to waste someone’s time and I don’t want mine wasted either. I was really excited about this one, and she is very familiar with personality disorders, but is not willing to explore pathologicals in detail with regards to my experiences. I’m not sure why, but she also TREATS pathologicals and uses a cognitive behavioral approach which isn’t working for me. I guess we keep trying, but it seems very sad to me that survivors cannot get the help they need, when they very much want and need it. Kel

  48. Kelli:I didn’t deserve what he did to me. But maybe I did after all.

    If I may why do you think you deserved what he did to you? Remember the art painting of Thomas Sheridan in the balloon that took him to the other side of peace and contentment? He said, “This is the place I am at, and this is where I am going to stay”. Kelli YOU my friend are the only one that knows your true value, this is something only YOU can discover and you certainly dont need the validation of some twisted disordered person to show you what your worth and value is. That must come from within YOU. Dont take the whip from him and start hitting yourself with it because he viewed you as some side sexcapade, or some dirty little secret. This was HIS sick and twisted perception of you, but never for a second was it what you were and are!!!! I know two things to be true of their relationshit, 1 – HE LIES TO HER 2- HE SERIAL CHEATS ON HER this is ALL I know to be my truth. Now Kelli is this a man that is “all happy and sexually content”? YOURS CHEATS TOO, dont kid yourself THEY ALL CHEAT!!!!! Is he treating her any better than he treated us, we were the dirty little secret but he is keeping his dirty little secrets from her, someone once told me HE IS EXPLOITING HER, – yours is doing that sexually and financially behind her back, just not with you but with someone else now and God knows how many and who really cares.

    I know as I release him further and further from my thoughts and move forward I KNOW WHO I AM. I am a compassionate, loyal, giving, talented, loving woman that was just targeted by a psychopath who placed a role in what he wanted me to be in his life. NO THANKS I respectfully decline in what you had to offer me because I dont have what it takes to be some mans side whore I AM TOO GOOD AND VALUABLE of a person to be that for you and all your attempts to place me in that role FAILED and furthermore just the fact that you even viewed me in that light gives me a pretty clear indication that something is VERY wrong with you. This is how you should be thinking Kelli – IT IS HIM that is NOT worthy of YOU!!!!!!! It is YOU that will one day be happy and sexually content (well for the most part ha ha) IT IS YOU Kelli that has always FAR FAR exceeded in your humanity what this person will ever be – this is what you must feel from your heart. Love Linda

  49. Linda

    This makes so much sense. So much sense!



  50. Linda, nobody deserves a psychopath… except maybe another psychopath! Claudia

  51. Gary and Kelli, don’t settle for just anyone; you will eventually find the right one. It’s tough to click with any person in general, let alone in something as personal as therapy. Claudia

  52. Linda,

    I think this is a combo pack. The phone calls definitely triggered me. But it’s more than that. I’m coming up on a year, which will happen smack dab during the holiday season and my birthday. There will be a lot of firsts this year and it just HURTS. Going back to school on Monday. I use to call him or he’d call me all the time, and I could tell him about my day, my classes and my grades on tests and such. He would ask, and even though I know it was manipulation, there is no one special anymore to call. To talk about my day with anymore, not like that. Last year, my birthday was miserable with him. I didn’t know it yet, but he was already targeting someone else. Last year, my birthday was just a few days before Thanksgiving. The day after Thanksgiving, he sent his brother over to the targets house with wine and flowers and he’d been giving her gifts. He gave me something completely stupid and cheap and days after the day. He invited me out to lunch but it was halfhearted and felt obligatory. Anything he did at this point felt like if I did it, I was going to be hurt. I was right. Now i’m glad I didn’t go. I’m so angry! I didn’t deserve the treatment he gave me on birthday’s christmas, or any other holiday which he destroyed with his pity parties and his provocations that he KNEW would lead to arguments or my reactions. THIS HURTS in a way that it hasn’t before. I don’t want to LIVE through these firsts. That’s how I”m feeling the pain is so deep for me right now. you can bet wife three is NOT going to get that treatment during the holidays or her birthday. Every birthday for the last ten years, he made miserable for me, while I knocked myself out for him. During the last year, he created arguments around HIS birthday and i gave up and gave him NOTHING. While he was claiming i made his day miserable, four days later his ass was on a flight for three nights of dates with the next target. Tell me, is THAT empathy? The abuse towards the end while trying to disengage and ALL around the holidays and my birthday brings back all the abusive behavior. I’m in so much pain. Add to this the stress that my dog is not well. We have had MANY times together, good and bad. Each secret, pain, happiness, everything goes with him when he dies. I know it’s coming, and I PRAY that it does not happen until AFTER the holidays. That sounds STOOOPID coming from an animal lover, but he is my very best friend and I don’t know what I’m going to do without him. I don’t think one’s heart can ever be prepared for this loss. Ever. I’m grateful for the time I”ve had with my baby boy, but I can’t do another loss. And his will be profound. I know people say he’s “just a dog” but he’s so much more to all of us. I just want the pain to STOP. I think this is also the first time I’m really feeling the loss of not having a “partner”. I know I’m not ready yet, so please don’t advise me there, but I sure wish I had at least a close friend. I’m hyper vigilant to any man who approaches me now. For the first time, I’m seeing what a HEALTHY relationship would look like and it has nothing to do with the addiction, anxiety, grief, depression and FEAR that this relationship gave me. I want SO MUCH for peace in my life. Just peace, without his interference AT ALL.It’s hard enough, without him wanting to play games and increase my pain. Kel

  53. Kelli, I really feel for you. With your “anniversary” of leaving the psychopath coming up, it brings up memories of the absolute worst times.

    People sometimes ask me “When did you break up? Why?” Such simple questions, yet I find them almost impossible to answer. You don’t “break up” with a psychopath. Things just become completely insane for months on end until either the psychopath decides to get his jollies elsewhere or you decide to go no contact. Normal people just can’t understand this; it’s way too bizarre and totally out of the realm of typical relationship dynamics. But I certainly understand the loneliness that comes from not being able to explain what happened and why to others.

    BTW, my “canned” answer for people is that I moved out the day before Valentine’s Day because we couldn’t come to an agreement regarding whether we should continue in the USA or Canada. That’s true, except for the fact that we couldn’t even have an adult discussion about this issue; whenever I brought it up it triggered an episode of rage, blame, gaslighting, rewriting history, etc. And I don’t even try to describe the insanity during the two months before I moved out and the two months afterwards, before I went no contact. The “breakup period” is truly the most painful, because you have no choice but to deal with the fact that the person you loved so deeply for so long is simply crazy – and you have no clue as to why. But it hurts like hell.

    I’m rooting for your little weiner dog to make it through the holidays with you. Yes, his loss will be tragic, but I think he’s the best support you have going for you now. Animals are so honest (a welcome relief from psychopaths!), and without a common language our only communication is with feelings. Real, authentic, heartfelt feelings. I have absolutely no doubt that he knows what you’re going through and understands. And no, he’s not “just a dog.” He’s your very best friend and has been by your side through every moment of the hardships you have recently been through, being more supportive and understanding than many of your family and friends. My lone remaining cat Kara has been much the same; through good days and bad, she’d hop onto my chest and purr away and console me. I will certainly continue to honour your Hercules after he’s gone, and I’m sure that many here will do the same.

    Yes, you’re going through a lot of pain right now, but I hope you can take comfort in knowing that many people here on Claudia’s blog understand and support you, myself included. Best wishes. – Julian.

  54. Julian, I’m rooting for Hercules too (Kel’s adorable dog and baby)!
    He’s so sweet and loving, an angel. Claudia

  55. Susan: I like this description “You were emotionally raped by a deformed man who couldn’t be happy if his life depended on it. He can act.” I always wondered what it would be like married to an actor, now I know, ha ha ha However your WHOLE life is not supposed to be just an act only your work if you are an actor HUGE DIFFERENCE. I was telling Kelli something Thomas shared with someone who interviewed him; the wife of a psycho was picking him up at the airport and she spotted him and tapped him on the back and he turned around and for about 3-5 seconds it caught him off guard he just stared at her as if he didnt even know her he had to quickly shift gears put on his mask and pretense of what he plays for her, NOW THAT IS PRETTY SCARY, the wife just looked at him like WHAT THE HELL? ITS ME why are you looking at me as if I am a total stranger, well because HE IS so he pulls the mask out for what he wears for her – I mean this was who we were dealing with Susan and I often asked my counselor HOW can he pretend all these years that he loves her I COULD NOT GRASP THIS, they can pretend because there is NO REAL SELF inside them EVER and they have spent their entire lives pretending to be someone or something they never were because there is NOTHING THERE. Its painful for me to accept this that I actually got involved with such a dysfunctional and deformed person and I suffered NOT because it was anything I ever lacked but because he was what he was. x0x0 Linda

  56. Julian, Susan, Linda, claudia,

    I so appreciate your words of comfort and support the last few days. It has helped me immeasurably in putting me back on the right track. I believe the worst of this trigger, for now, is at least over. HUGS!

    Linda, I want to challenge your thinking about how the disordered one pretends. You don’t get to see what he’s doing with the gf or how he behaves towards her, which was part of his slime, compartmentalize, compartmentalize, compartmentalize! He can’t be seen as anything but someone perfect that YOU were had the misfortune of not being able to catch. It is MY BET that this man isn’t pretending anything to her. I don’t think it’s of the norm to hold off the abuse for a long period of time. It happens, I know, but even a year, IN THE NORM is pushing it before the mask drops. She is just willing to live with it. And God knows what she’s living with, but I bet that it isn’t what HE wanted you to believe it was. We fall for the outward presentation in getting into the relationship and we fall for it when we get out, believing that what we experienced was only for us and not directed at someone else. This I understand, having been the OW. This “role” we took on, is especially difficult to heal from. We were NOT privvy to a daily life with him, so the fantasy he created for us in that we should be ENVIOUS of his current main supply source, is exactly what he WANTS. That helps him to feel powerful and superior. He projects HIS envy ONTO US. A lot of memories have popped up for me in the last few days. Remembrances of the abuse. There were things he said and did that were just apart of his DISORDER, that ANYONE would experience. This is THE key, Linda. I am now recalling specific events of abuse that he did to me, but he did it to his ex wife TOO and I have proof of that. The UNDERLYING behaviors, the projections, manipulations, lies, word salad, raging, subtle abuse, saying things disguised as a joke, blaming, etc, ALL of those behaviors ARE the disorder and he uses it on EVERYONE he is close too. And your ex uses them on his gf too. Of that you can be certain. It is not just minimally disordered with one person and not another. This is what i realized in what my ex created as an ILLUSION so I would buy into the fantasy and carrot dangle. But ILLUSION is all it was. He is DISORDERED and the way he communicates with others, no matter what tactics are used, are INHERENT in him. Give that some thought. Kel

  57. Kelli: You may be very correct with this input; but I believe no matter how long they are with someone they still dont show their TRUE side totally, I think he hides many things from her but for the most part his behavior could have been very similar with her the way he was with me. If they do swap with others she is SICK I AGREE. If she DOES do these things you can bet he has changed her brain chemistry over the course of the years and brainwashed her to what he wants her to be for him, YOU CAN BE SURE OF THAT. I can further conclude that if his mask is FULLY OFF for her than she is very damaged herself for staying with such a disordered person. The only truth I know Kelli is that anyone that could have done such a horrible thing to me with not one single act of remorse is a full blown psychopath and I am glad I am free as much as it hurts I would rather be alone than destroyed by such an evil person, who used me under a disguise to further his predation. I am GLAD he found me no longer useful x0x0 Linda

  58. Hi Claudia, Julian, Michael, Keli, Linda, Susan and everyone
    This is another great post, I know i always say that they are great but they are. Its not just the lies they tell, but its the destruction that they cause from these lies and the rippling affect (or rather tsunami affect!) it has on your life afterwards, that sadly just takes as long as it takes to straighten back out again,
    Keli, I’m sorry to hear that you have been having difficult times again, I am not sure if I’m right here but i think it is with the confusion in your mind over the “is he, isnt he a psychopath?” As you mostly know from my posts on the last blog, my ex started emailing me again about random nonsense, first it was about that he thought i’d found someone else, then it was about what my favourite track of the 80s would have been (that was so he could put in about remembering me dancing when we were both at school, to tug at my heart, to make me remember that “special connection” i thought we had) – his last email Keli, is why I am thinking of you. He emailed and, I quote, told me that he was “in a different relationship now, a different kind of relationship, one based on trust and affection, not sex, anger, jealousy and insecurity. The sex was not as exciting or good as it was before (i gather he meant me but who knows!!) but what he lost on the roundabouts he gained on the swings and that with all that spark we had you had bad points, and now his life was chilled easy living on the whole.”
    I suppose it is my equivalent of your comparison with the money and great lifestyle Keli, that your ex is now in. I KNOW that my ex said all that to hurt me, no normal person would email someone after months and tell them stuff about their new relationship and the sex in it, especially when they were left with no illusion that i NEVER wanted to hear about any relationship he was in, let along the sexual details. They use whatever it is they have now to beat you time and time again with. Whatever you had together at the start, is now wrong, all you brought to the relationship was wrong. With mine he accuses me of what HE brought to the table, not me. Jealousy, anger, feeding my insecurities, which I had nigh on none until he started gaslighting me, lying, triangulating. Of course he is also saying that all he saw in me was a shag. Which again is insulting, beyond hurtful, vile, considering what i gave up for him, i.e. my whole life.
    But what he also did was plant that seed of thought and doubt back in my head, that I was the one in the wrong, that I was not trusting (i found the searches on his computer, but if he had been behaving then i would not have found them right??) , that I caused the fights, the jealousy, the resentment. I should have kept my mouth shut, let him away with anything for his dream of “chilled easy living”. I have been so upset about this since getting that email – which I should never have opened, I’d managed to block his emails so they go into spam, and I should have deleted it on sight. And from now on i always will.
    I have to remember, that whoever and whatever kind of person my ex p is with, will at the end of the day be destroyed. That lack of spark, that lack of excitement will one day be thrown in her face she will be accused of being boring, no connection, plain. No matter how trusting she is one day she will notice a chink of shite (not light) through his dark curtain and when she dares question his story then the wheel will turn again, and it will be set to maximum damage, as is always the case. The only reason he is supposedly “content with her” is because she will either not be living with him, not be with him a lot or highly unintuitive. Either that or he has gotten better at hiding his duplicitous nature. I have to remind myself constantly of all these points, or I will implode. I know that. These types can destroy all the good work and healing you have slowly dragged yourself through in about five words. So I know Keli, as well we all do on this site, how hard it is at points not to beat yourself up over it and that you were the one with the failings. You and everyone else here were not the ones with the personality disorder, the one that was abusive, the one that pathologically lied and used people. And I for one have to keep holding that thought, difficult as it is for me sometimes, or he will have won.
    Sorry everyone, if I’m not too great today…but you are all such an inspiration to me and i’m glad i have this site so I can read all your comments and feel stronger on days like today.
    Love lesleyxxxxxxxxx

  59. Lesley, amazing how psychopaths throw around the concepts that tie other human beings in bonds of love: like “trust” and “affection”. As Hare states, they know the sound but not the music. They have no sense of what these words really mean to the rest of us, but they use them to hurt us, to pour salt on old wounds. That’s what your ex was doing. He knew that this is precisely what you had wanted from him and tried to make you jealous, that he’s now offering what you wanted and never got from him to someone else. Rest assured that he’s not. She’s just another victim in a long (and simultaneous) series. But you can find trust and affection with someone else, someone capable of love. I hope we’ll read about many success stories on this blog as many of us move on and thrive in our lives after the psychopaths. Claudia

  60. Ling, that’s a typical psychopathic strategy: gaslighting. Claudia

  61. Linda, that’s very true: psychopaths rarely show ALL of their evil completely because they use others to establish a mask of sanity and because they often hope to return to former targets and milk them again. As Julian stated earlier, they don’t break up completely. They place people in reserve as they mine for new targets to use. I’m so glad too that your psychopathic ex no longer found you useful. Claudia

  62. Kelli, personally I think that daily life with a psychopath is a living hell, even worse than an affair is because then you are far more under his thumb, surveillance and control. Victims who have the misfortune of living with psychopaths live completely under the lie (the false and destabilizing perception of reality) created by the psychopath. They have to work harder to escape not just from the psychopath and sever all ties with him, but also from the mind control, which as we know, victims internalize. Claudia

  63. Thank you Claudia, and its great to hear from you – I hope your trip went well!!
    Exactly as you say, he just uses these words as he KNOWS that is what he promised me. It was not me that destroyed us with lies and insecurities but him. Yes i checked up on him, but i had a feeling in my gut that something was not right. He thought I was a push over so in love that he could do what he liked and i would not ever check him out on the pc. And, i was going to say nothing to him, until the day he went crazy at me because i told him when he was out in the car that i was chatting to a guy on facebook (that lives in America that we were BOTH friends with!!) – I am not a fan of double standards, which in any case I was being honest and telling him I was chatting to a bloke, he kept all his dealings hidden, or so he thought. My ex just did not like that i would front up to him and demand the same level of trust and love that i gave him. And as we all know Claudia, that is impossible for these types.
    He has hurt me Claudia, no doubt about it, but its deliberate. There is not a grain of truth in anything he said. And if they do have trust and affection, then that is only “for now”. her time will come, as it does to every woman. She is not my concern though. Its me that is my concern!! And dealing emotionally with the hurtful stabs he makes at “my failings”.
    Yes, i hope that one day i am writing on this blog that i am once again happy, and on an even keel, man or no man!!
    Thank you so much for your help and support again.

  64. Susan, I am sorry to bother you but do you have the text of the automated response to an email that you posted on another blog? i need to use it and I cant find it anywhere!!
    many thanks

  65. Lesley, you’re absolutely right that it was HE who destroyed the relationship. It never ceases to amaze me how psychopaths can turn around your best characteristics and use them against you. They do it so well that we begin to seriously doubt ourselves.

    I’m not at all stingy with my time, energy and money with those close to me, yet towards the end of the relationshit I was physically and emotionally burned out and my bank account near empty. When I tried to negotiate some respite from all the household repair work and postpone our next (expensive) vacation, she accused me of being “lazy” and “cheap.” She, on the other hand, had contributed almost no time or money whatsoever to our shared life, except for granting me “the privilege of living in her house” (yes, those were her exact words). Yeah, her rotting, drafty 120-year-old house.

    Just a couple of days later she announced that she had just bought a new, larger refrigerator and that I was to knock down this wall here in order to make room for it. Huh? Knock down a wall? It’s as if we never had that discussion only 48 hours ago about my being exhausted from 60-hour weeks at work and all the other chores she had dumped on me. So the fridge sat in the middle of the kitchen for a month, and I of course, sank to new levels of “laziness.”

    Granted, we did need a new fridge, but it worked fine in the winter and the hot summer season when it failed was six months away. There was absolutely no reason to buy a new fridge in December – except to prove how lazy I really was.

    In retrospect, there were a few more examples of such “set you up to fail” scenarios in our relationshit. All deviously designed and executed to destroy my faith in my own character and abilities, and to have me believe that I was the cause of all of our difficulties.

    So, Lesley and everyone else, try to be really clear on how you were cunningly deceived by the psychopath into believing your alleged “failings” and accepting blame for things that were in fact his fault.

    The other day, I read the following somewhere on a Marriage 2.0 related blog:
    – There’s nothing better than a happy marriage.
    – Failing that, being single is second best.
    – The worst of all is a terrible marriage. Get out!

    Best wishes – Julian.

  66. Hi Julian
    Thank you. My ex has not contacted me for MONTHS. And before when he did, he would tell me nothing and that is NOTHING about who he was seeing, well maybe that he was “dating” but he wouldn’t go into details of what a loving relationship he was in and the standard of sex!! This is a whole new low for him. What was consistent though was the blame. It was all my fault. All of it.
    With you, your ex set you up for a fall as she pushed and pushed you financially, physically, emotionally, until you were always going to fail anyway. They have to prove that it is YOU that is the weak link. YOU will be the sole reason anything in the whole world fails. My ex was the same. They don’t have the intelligence or care for anyone to see that it is their irrational behaviour, lies, and general fucking about that destroys you and the “relationship”. When you then crack then you are weak, untrusting, needy, too emotional, a wimp and they are too good for you. They will remain blameless for their whole lives.
    I think that is why I for one found this so hard to get over, obviously there is the trauma, the shock of the hateful behaviour to you from someone who supposedly loved you, but the blame thing. That really annoys me!! and hurts me. Its so…childish, but without the innocence that children can get away with – on the contrary…its pure evil. You could stand them infront of hundreds of people and they would still swear it was your fault and repeat their distortion of the truth even if all the hundreds of people knew what they had done.
    That is why I for one just cannot stand to hear or read what my ex says Julian. I get so wound up that i just end up crying, not furious…just beaten down again, due to frustration. And there is no point at the end of the day. As i read on another site, you may as well spit in the ocean trying to reason with these types.
    Hahaha – i had a good marriage…well for the most part….i think i’ll stick to the single bit for now!
    Hope you are ok Julian – thank you for always being there, as with you all.

  67. Claudia and all – I believe the reason my x path does not show his TRUE SELF to his GF is because they dont really have a TRUE SELF so what would he show her? I am sure he shows her a PART of what he is but then again what would that be? Kelli triggered something that I fail to understand here. Of course he doesnt come home and give her the idealization treatment he will interject that now and then to keep her with him when she pulls away or does not understand his behavior as I did. He will smooth her concerns over with his lies and convince her that he DOES love her but if she is unaware that he is a psychopath what she does not know is the animal CANT LOVE and he NEVER bonded to her and never will so he fakes all this. That is what I meant in how they wear personas almost all of the time with their partners, they use these personas to fool and convince their partners they are so special to them. On the other hand if he comes home and says Oh baby guess what I got some other swapping couples lined up for us this weekend and she says, eww great then her demise was at his hands – she could be a psychopath just as he is but HIGHLY doubtful. I firmly believe his GF has a conscience and has compassionate human qualities or he would not be with her they NEED these qualities from others in others to thrive. He does not try to destroy her because he NEEDS her for other reasons; he cheats and lies to her and I think this is where most of her abuse is from him. However I firmly believe she is living in an illusion with him – the animal CANT LOVE, CANT BOND, is a sexual and social predator has left nothing but destruction in his past life (and more in the future to come I am sure) So I have to say in my conclusion WHO would want to live with such a vile creature KNOWING what he has done to others? x0x0 Linda

  68. Oh dear….I don’t remember where I posted it either. So I did some research and I think this is best.

    Hit reply and change the subject line to:
    Automatic reply: (then put their subject here)

    This is an automatic response. This email account is slated for deletion for non-use.

    (Erase their whole message below that, because autoresponsder’s usually don’t send the text back .)

    Send it.

    Over and over . If it goes on too long, just don’t autorespond, as if the account is now deleted.

  69. I don’t know where I posted it either, but after researching again, here is what I think looks most legitimate.

    Hit reply to their message.
    Change the subject line type to:
    Automatic reply: (then their exact subject line here)

    Delete their message in the body (as autoresponders usually don’t quote back the text)
    For the message put:

    This is an automatic reply to your email. This email account is slated for deletion due to non-use.

    Then send it. Do the same for any messages in the next two weeks, then just stop, as if the account is closed. Anyone too techy, will probably know it is just you, but won’t be sure.

    More sophisticated tips:
    for gmail

    for yahoo (great message to copy, better than mine)

    Or….switch to You can do a free account.
    You can set it up so emails to you from a certain address are deleted without ever hitting your inbox, trash or spam. Then you are never tempted to read anything from the p because you will never see it and you won’t know if the p is writing you or not. Good for peace of mind.

    Just put a REAL autoresponder on your old email, giving people your new hushmail address. Explain that you are switching because you are tired of deleting spam and it is an email system that lets you mark whatever email addresses you wish for deletion BEFORE they are delivered, so that they never hit even your spam or trash folder.

    The p will realize that you will be blocking him/her.

  70. My reply is up above. Sorry. I must need more coffee.

  71. Linda,

    It’s more than just “hiding” what he DOES outside the relationship. With disordered one’s they have certain attitudes and behaviors, due to their sense of entitlement and grandiosity that they project on a daily basis. I found out my ex’s ex wife was dealing with similar dynamics in manipulation, control and prolific mind games, even though she had no idea about me until five years into the affair. But he was cruel and mean to her from day one. A lot of this I have derived from some of the stories he has told, and while he told them, he was BLISSFUL in what he had done to her. This is how I KNOW those stories are true, yet what he didn’t know is that I KNEW he was trying to come off as the victim, rather than what he really was, the abuser.

    These are things we cannot see. He does not have the ability to turn off and on his pathology like a light switch. It is ALWAYS there! There is no way you can be around a pathological and not be traumatized by it. There are those who have been lucky enough, like claudia, to only have been involved about a year and escape but not without GREAT harm! It isn’t just about what they hide and what they’re doing outside of home, but what they do on a daily basis, day in and day out, whomever they are with and it’s not just limited to intimate partners either. Kel

  72. Lesley:

    RE: your above last post. I did mention that for about a month mine was playing games by calling from an “unavailable” number at certain times, over the course of a month and when I got sick of it, I had my son answer and he was hung up on. They have stopped, but I knew his reasons for trying to reach me, if in fact he would have bothered to talk to me had I answered. It was to GROVEL about his new marriage and about how “HAPPY” he is. I didn’t want to hear it. I want to hear nothing. I want to KNOW NOTHING. Even while it hurts, I’d rather not know. This is the psychopaths powers of destruction. This is why this man did to you what he did, on purpose, he knew he wanted to DESTROY you further. Who does something like that? A psychopath. You have to really think about that. What NON DISORDERED person would call their ex and say, By the way, YOU SUCKED AND I”M SO HAPPY AND WOW WE WERE JUST NEVER GOING TO WORK OUT, but then I found out this woman and she is sensational! Well, not as good in bed as YOU are (Meaning: Wanna be fuck buddies? Maybe?) but HEY, everything else she has and YOU didn’t. Only out of a psychopath Lesley.

    Don’t let him get to you. Don’t answer his calls or emails or anything and PLEASE don’t take this upon yourself. You seem so strong and that’s just where you need to be after this prolific mindfucking nightmare!! I”M PROUD OF YOU and really love hearing that you’re just getting stronger! BIG BIG HUGS!

  73. Julian?

    Wow. Just wow. There really isn’t much more to say. You’re just way too NICE!

    I’m really glad you’re out of the relationshit now and can also see the differences between normal people who have failed relationships and break ups with psychopaths in relationshits.

    It is far outside a “normals” understanding and that’s why we’re all here. HUGS. Kel

  74. Linda

    Your experiences with him have determined what you THINK may or may not be going on with his gf. Of COURSE they use the fake persona, but it can’t last long. It’s not real and energy draining to keep it up. He’s abusive to her, but you don’t see it. It may not be sexually, but it is definitely emotional/verbal and who knows MAYBE sexual too. One of the elements you might want to think about is that the reason women stay with these men is because they have a HIGH TOLERANCE for abuse. That is sad, but who wants to live a life like that? There is no way you can be involved with a pathological and NOT experience abuse and NOT have red flags. They are just ignored or we didn’t understand what to look for. Maybe she did or didn’t know, but her tolerance is high. I guess you could be glad that yours is not. They need women/men who will endure the abuse, because the abuse is inevitable. I put up with it FAR FAR FAR longer than I should have. WAY too long and the red flags were blowing in the wind way early on. I didn’t know about pathology then, not like i do now, but I’ve learned that I DO NOT want another, that’s for sure! I go back and forth between being single the rest of my life, to ok MAYBE I’ll take a chance. It would take a strong man to deal with me and all of my “issues” anyway because my own family background is unhealthy, in order to put HEALTHY into practice. I don’t think there are many men out there with that kind of emotional stamina. But I can tell you, I will never repeat that mistake again and I’d rather be healthy and single than with my abuser and unhealthy! Kel

  75. Kelli, thanks so much. But it gets even worse. The refrigerator story resumed in January, when I did take down that wall. You can imagine the layers upon layers of deteriorated material in a 120-year-old house, so I prudently obtained a lot of plastic sheeting and masking tape to isolate the work area and reduce the spread of dust to other parts of the house. But you can’t contain it 100% without installing a hospital-grade ventilation system.

    You can probably guess what happened: my ex threw a tantrum because there was a very, very thin layer of dust in the living room. After my gruelling 10-hour day of difficult and dirty work, she showed not one shred of appreciation or gratitude, only contempt and blame. Exhausted, severely disappointed and confused, I found myself on the verge of tears and feeling completely broken.

    I should add that this was the day our sex life ended (I totally lost interest), and I moved out just a couple of weeks later.

    Lesley, it’s not just the blame, but the intense feelings of injustice (because he or she will forever remain blameless) and frustration (from our complete inability to do anything about it) – plus a powerful feeling of anger plus frustration sometimes at the overall insanity of the situation. I can’t tell you how many times I just wanted to scream, “But I’m not like that!” or “You don’t own me!” It’s a truly toxic cocktail of negative emotions that can really eat at you.

    I sometimes still fall back into the “blame” trap. The difference now is that I’m aware that it’s happening, and I can pull myself out of it pretty quickly instead of obsessing over it for days like I used to. Blame is something that we accept, and we’re also capable of not accepting it. That sounds so simple, but in reality it’s very difficult because the psychopath severely eroded our sense of self-worth and gave us so many cleverly contrived reasons for accepting blame that wasn’t rightfully ours. Good luck to you! – Julian.

  76. Kelli, you raised a great point: They need women/men who will endure the abuse, because the abuse is inevitable. This goes a long way towards explaining how my ex-girl-fiend managed to stay with her (now) ex-husband for over five years. I got the impression that he was a wimpy little mama’s boy and somehow tolerated the abuse for so long.

    The other point I’d like to add is that psychopaths seem to have a basic guiding principle in many of the things they do: minimum effort for maximum results. In her previous relationship, my ex managed to fleece her partner for a two-year all-expenses-paid masters’ degree at a prestigious university, several expensive tropical vacations, lots of renovations to her rotting house, an $8,000 engagement ring, and a $35,000 four-hour party for her (aka “wedding”). My strong suspicion (supported by a lot of divorce-court proceedings I saw) is that she did all this by dangling the promise of bearing his children in front him (really easy to do!) for years and then reneging shortly after the wedding when it became a real option.

    I’ll bet that she behaved just the same way with him as she did with me: “mostly normal” with some weird outburst every three or four weeks. Because it was extremely profitable for her to do so. Minimum energy, maximum returns.

    And I couldn’t agree with you more about being healthy and single rather than in an unhealthy relationship. We’ve both been there and done that, and never again! – Julian.

  77. Julian

    Interesting. Something just dawned on me with your last post. She’d go three or four weeks before an “episode”. I bet there’s a lot more there than you may realize. If it wasn’t a rage attack, then it was manipulation. Either way, it was abuse ALL of the time. The mean/sweet cycles are intermittent reinforcement techniques the psychopaths use to keep us in relationshits with them, HOWEVER, if it wasn’t so bad, if those FEW WEEKS IN BETWEEN WHEN SHE WAS SUPPOSEDLY NICE, were REALLY that nice? Then the rage attacks would not have bothered you as they did. This is something that happens over a period of time. Mine use to tell me he wasn’t a very good liar. That may well be true. Because even when I caught him in lies, he DENIED he lied, but in my heart I knew. His abuse was daily. Sometimes it comes down to WHAT is abuse. We let little comments, jokes, that slight disinterest, word salad, missed ques when they discuss rotten things about others, or ex’s, friends or that over the top manipulation…we let them go. But as you can see, over time, their true colors show and it isn’t long before you realize that the sweet isn’t them at all. Someone who was healthy, may lose their temper from time to time, we all do, but it’s sooooooooo much different when with a psychopath. Because even when there is seeming peace, there is NOT. Kel

  78. Kel, how true! There’s not a calm moment, because even when the psychopath is not busy manipulating you, you suspect he’s busy manipulating another… Claudia

  79. Julian, psychopaths condition their victims for abuse, gradually and slowly, but steadily. They don’t necessarily choose weak people, but they do choose vulnerable ones, since they immediately spot people’s soft spots and know how to use them. Claudia

  80. Kel, even in one year the psychopath did more damage in my life–and my family–than all other human beings I ever met put together. The only thing I can say on the positive side is that it could have been a lot worse had I moved in with him. But psychopaths are like a rampant cancer, that takes over any healthy organism. It doesn’t take long to be destroyed by them. Claudia

  81. Claudia, SO TRUE…there is MUCH anxiety in daily life with a psychopath. Wow…

  82. Excerpts from the forward of Thomas Sheridan’s book, “Puzzling People” forward by Holly Ollivander.

    “Red flags are our feelings telling us to pay attention. Red flags are the signage of our souls, an indication that something may be seriously out of alignment with the way we are communicating with the greater part of ourselves. We were not weak, were not stupid, we were vulnerable, and the predator pounced. There was something in us that we felt was lacking that only this other person could ever fulfil and here’s the thing: THEY SNIFF THAT OUT, that need have have, and then they move in for the kill. Romantic films and love songs do us all a great disservice; they key to joy is learning that the more complete we can be in ourselves-self trust, self belief, self love,- the more we attract into our lives other humans who are complete in themselves also. Then- LOOK OUT- this is the truly magical moment when a relationship takes off and soars; two people who are together for the fun of enhancing each other’s lives, not to fill some hole or missing part in each other’s hearts.

    …and maybe that’s the part the really hurts the most.

    It’s a funny old thing, infatuation. Love expands the soul, while infatuation shrinks the intellect and debases the currency of communication. Infatuation can make you feel so high, so good. It can make you do crazy things like leap tall buildings in a single bound, then taller ones, then still taller ones. It can make you walk on burning coals or believe anything you are told. Infatuation can make you do anything sort of ram a rocket up your backside and light it to achieve that lift-off again,. to once more feel the wonder of the incredible illusion that someone-at long last- sees the real you. It can be the most delicious feeling in the world, until the predator, the user, the taker, the abuser, moves on.
    If this is where you are now, you may want to kill. You may want to die. You may want to cut your own heart out to get rid of the pain. It may feel like your thoughts are thinking you, that you are losing your mind….this is because you are DETOXING. You’ve experienced a surge of dopamine rushing through brain stimulating a cascade of shimmering pleasure. Norepinephrine kick started the production of adrenaline that made your heart pound. The payoff of a p[henethylamine-flooded nervous system was bliss. The primary sexual arousal hormone oxytocin mimicked the build up of orgasm and subsequent feelings of emotional attachment. This chemical cocktail overcame critical faculties and left you defenceless to your emotional-high drug pusher.
    The good new is there was never anything missing in your heart and oul, nor were you ever really lost. The moment you begin to embrace this then you will be ready to experience life ENHANCEMENT by your own will, rather than life DIMINISHMENT by another’s ill intent”

  83. Kel, Sheridan’s right about infatuation. Its etymology tells us a lot, since it’s based on ignorance, if not, as in Latin, foolishness. I think most romantic relationships pass through an infatuation phase–when we’re smitten with our new partner–but with a psychopath, that’s all there is to the relationship, and even that’s based on not knowing what he does behind our backs and what his true nature and intentions are. Claudia

  84. Hi Claudia, Keli, Julian, Susan, Linda and all
    Keli thank you. I know, why would anyone mentally healthy phone up their ex (as in your case) or email them (in mine) and tell them why they were happy with someone else?!! And to really stick the knife in to tell you the sex is ok, but they can put up with that as she isn’t YOU. I have got to the point with my ex’s emails that the minute i saw his name i felt sick. Now they go straight to my spam and i delete them from there. Why do they want to destroy someone so much that they never cared for? Though they wont see it that they are destroying you, they are just being glib and full of it and cocky and boasting how happy they are with this wonderful person. I cant read his emails Keli, i just cant bear it, i know if i read ANY of them they would trigger me into blaming myself, hating myself, thinking i was the wrong one. And its all lies and so so abusive and spiteful. I must be a bit stronger as before I used to open them, respond, plead with him to try to understand my side of it. Now I know he is incapable of anything human. Thank you so much for keeping me up and reminding me why they do these things. I am so glad I have you, and everyone else. I do so hope you are feeling better.x
    Julian, yes the frustration, the unfairness, the anger, but then if you react then you are AGAIN at fault. Conform or be destroyed. Apart from even if you conform you are still destroyed. They cannot see (though they know deep down) that they are not right, not being fair, manipulating you, they know all the bad things they do and are as they project them and say them to you, that is what you are , but its not. its what THEY are. I am the same as you, used to fall into that trap, blame myself for weeks, beat myself up. its awful. No one normal would treat anyone that way!!!
    Also you mention the 3/4 week patterns, mine was the same, every 3 -4 weeks the shit would hit the fan. And whose fault was it?? Mine, obviously. My friend was with a path for years, he was the same, same pattern of abuse. I wonder why they have this 3-4 week pattern as it comes up a lot.
    Susan – thank you, that is great. I shall keep the text of that and sort my emails out properly. Thank you so much again.
    Its funny isnt’ it. How someone who supposedly saw you as something so wonderful really underneath didn’t see you at all. If anything they just covered up that they hated you. I wonder if mine will try really hard with this one, though to be honest, I don’t think he can manage it for long. I think he has about a two month expiry date on his normality. Then it gets harder for him to be nice. Also, i’ve not heard from him for months, and if i ever did email him he never EVER responded. Isnt’ it funny that he’s suddenly in touch again now. I suppose she is so great and life is so much easy living that he needs to yank my chain for a while to give him some excitement. And its always when you are starting to feel that bit better too. I don’t know how they do it..
    Love to you all

  85. Lesley

    I refer to that as their “seventh” sense, when they know you’re feeling better and want to create problems. Two things here that are so important to remember, is that when he is emailing you after so long, he’s violating your boundaries. Psychopaths are infamous for this. Secondly, they also LOOOOVE a good triangulation. They get bored very easily. The INTENT to the attempted contact is HARM. They never have “good wishes” for you or about you. It is to HARM you. They LOVE to hurt others. In fact, I believe this is THEIR addiction. If you can keep that in mind, it will be a lot easier to avoid him and be sickened by any contact he might make. It will feel violating and you wont CARE what he’s doing and whom hes with. Because the outcome for him and for another victim will always be the same. Kel

  86. Thanks Julian..the other thing he does is remind me that we are very much over, did i not know this, that the relationship is over. I think he likes to do that too to hurt me, well its all to hurt you isnt it. Some days I can deal with it fine, then other days I go into that feeling sorry for myself mode and wonder why i deserved this treatment, as i’m not a horrilbe person. but i have to remember. they do it to EVERYONE.

    thanks for always helping me out all of you

  87. Kelli and Claudia (a question for you) – Kelli thank you for sharing that insert from his book, WOW I am so looking forward to reading it as I know some of my further questions will be put to rest. (as much as it can) Also Kelli what you say makes sense in your experience of knowing what one of his x-wives dealt with. I always lacked understanding until my counselor explained it to me; Why does she stay with such a person? his answer was this= “Same reasons YOU stayed Linda”!!!! Same reasons you tolerated the arrangement in the relationship he set up. Yes those that are with them for years are NOT in a state of mental good health just as I wasnt. Kelli so much of my pain now is ALSo knowing I was not in a mental healthy state in other words I was pretty messed up; its a painful process to undo this state of mind and work towards becoming healthy again in my thought process. The chemicals he released in my brain kept me in a state of physical and mental addiction to him always wanting and craving that “shimmering pleasure” as Thomas puts it so nicely. I am no longer physically addicted to him but I still have days I remember that pleasure and how it made me feel emotionally as well. I clung to him desperately to validate my existence now that he is gone there are days I feel I dont really exist, I FEEL UTTERLY LOST. They keep you in this state KNOWING you are literally addicted to him so they can better manipulate your thoughts – Drug addicts will do ANYTHING to get their next fix and was I willing to engage in his sexual acts to GET THAT fix? “If you want to see me baby bring along a friend, man, woman makes no difference to me and I will give you more of that drug you seek to feel good, I will do some acting for you, I will play the part of anything you want me to be for you” along those lines…..

    His predation of me was literally that of a PIMP. This is how MANY pimps get women into prostitution. They shower them with flattery, promises, good sex to release their sexuality, they slowly start to condition them, they one day they may say, lets bring in another person baby just for the experience of it and many will do ANYTHING to please this person NEVER KNOWING they were being primed for prostitution. Only difference being my x path was not out for money but for his own personal sexual gratification but its that same type of predatory exploitation of another. A year into the relationship in the heat of the moment I once said to him, “I feel almost addicted to you, I cant get enough of you”, and the biggest smile was on his face because that is EXACTLY what he wanted. The sex was primal, raw, and animal like – it would take me days to recover I was so physically exhausted. I walk away now knowing I was SEVERELY SEVERELY addicted to a psychopath who snared and conned me into his sick world and sick convictions. BOY do I see so clearly why many of their partners stay, the same reason I would have stayed they put up with the abuse and their behaviors for the same reasons I did; his GF is addicted to him she may or may not realize this but he is her drug – exposure to, living with, a psychopath is nothing but an addiction to what they put in our brains. I have also heard there is not much difference in the damage from a 1 year, 2 year or 5 years encounter with them – once you get a good dose of what they do to you YOU ARE ADDICTED and the detox is extremely painful.

    Claudia here is my question for you; Actually its a few questions you can answer in your personal research: These chemical changes that Thomas speaks of Can these changes be reversed 100%? and once they are reversed will the memory of what it felt like go away completely? I suppose these things are replaced with REALITY but it takes our minds time to come down from that state we were in? Here is another question for you; do the paths KNOW of these chemicals that are released? Or is it more they know that EXTREME flattery and idealization get their targets under their spell so they can work them?

    Another area I wanted to touch, I have these moments of EXTREME REVENGE; I wonder if I sent him the book Puzzling People if he would read it or throw it away? If he read it would he PANIC because his greatest fear has been discovered? Would he say, OMG she KNOWS Iam a psychopath she knows I am a complete fraud and I am not right no wonder she stopped responding to my calls. Also I often wonder if he KNOWS I KNOW that he is messed up? REALLY, Kelli as you said there is NO WAY a pathological can leave his pathology outside the home, its with him ALL THE TIME its in his relationship with EVERYONE. Sorry this is so long but I am off today and I wanted to touch on these things. x0x0 Linda

  88. Linda, I think that the addiction to a psychopath is both chemical and psychological. I’m not a doctor, of course, but have read in several specialized books that there are certain chemicals released in our brains, particularly for women, when we bond through sex. But beyond that, I think the far more important addiction is psychological and emotional, as you state. Victims are addicted to the over-the-top declarations of love, flattery, promises, and sheer focus on them that a psychopath offers during the idealization/honeymoon phase. I think this addiction can be overcome. The first step is to accept the fact that you’re addicted to a lie. The second one is to go NC with the psychopath forever. The fourth is to keep busy and do constructive things with your life. I think boredom is one of the key things that hooks people to a psychopath. The psychopath seems initially very exciting, not just loving. But he only offers false love, and illusion, and his excitement is for the circumstances of seduction and the conquest itself, not for the target. Fundamentally, psychopaths are in actuality shallow and boring. The deeper this reality sinks into our minds, the more detached we become from the addiction to the psychopath. Claudia

  89. Lesley, with a psychopath it’s always BOTH “conform or be destroyed,” as you rightly state AND “conform and be destroyed.” Heads you lose; tails he wins. Claudia

  90. Annoulla: I ALSo have struggled to find a good job and KEEP IT, what is the deal there? The economy is against us but for now I am in an EASY job and maybe thats a good thing because my focus is not the best. Dont be too alarmed in the length of time it has taken you to recover, its so true what they say the recovery is a process and its a LONG process to achieve. It has taken me over 2 years to extract myself from him TOTALLY I know I have FINALLY reached the stage of NC ever again for the rest of my life I KNOW nothing good could ever become of having contact with a psychopath, NEVER there are no happy endings for ANYBODY who is with them, I have yet to read a happy existence for those who live with them and never will. x0x0 Linda

  91. Linda,

    I’m almost done with the book and I just received started it yesterday, speeding right through it. It’s really good and very interesting from his perspective. One of the things he talks about is how if you contact the psychopath wanting to one up him or get revenge they LOVE IT. They FEED off of anything you give him, love, hate, revenge, yelling, screaming, on other words any REACTION that he controls via manipulation or flat out destruction.

    If you sent the book to him, he would REGALE in HAPPINESS because he would KNOW he destroyed you.

    Linda, you MUST work a little harder to get beyond this. I know how hard it is and there will be times that you ruminate or are very triggered!!! I GET THAT, just had a huge trigger and it’s hard to overcome, but I see that you’re still stuck in the sexual part of it, as well as what you’ve realized your SOLE purpose was to him. One of the things I’m doing constantly is reinforcing my thought process in that he is a psychopath WITHOUT DOUBT. Another thing in Thomas’s book, to show you just how TWISTED they are, is that they LOOOOOOVE calling or getting in touch and telling you how great life is WITHOUT YOU IN IT, or how wonderful the new partner is. I believe that’s exactly what mine intended to do. He just got bored for a few weeks. In Thomas’s book it says it’s FUN for them to irritate and do MORE to try to DESTROY YOU. The real true and honest question YOU need to be asking yourself right now is this: How long are you going to give him that power? WHAT got you INTO the relationship in the first place? WHAT keeps YOU so angry that you’re ruminating about what he is, who he is, what he has done when you already KNOW? What other PLACES in your life that need to be addressed and dealt with that you’re not dealing with? Because I’ll tell you a little secret :)……..if there are other areas of your life that need fixing, no matter how hassling, painful or anything else, they will never be fixed while you’re still distracted in ruminating. Dealing with your marriage would be a GOOD place to start. I think this keeps you ruminating MORE about the psychopath. It may well be the reason that made you vulnerable to the psychopath in the first place. Those DEEPER issues need to be dealt with, so you can get FREE of the ruminating on HIM. I’m discovering that every time I get caught in a trigger or ruminate, something ELSE is coming up that i need to deal with. He is gone. He is going to do what he’s always done. There will always be victims aplenty, but I do NOT wish to continue to be one. And I don’t have to be anymore. Yes, there WILL be continued sadness, as I’m not even a year out yet. There will be pain. IT HURTS, but I’m also willing to look at ME and figure out what the hell got me into this mess in the first place! I dropped MY moral compass for an idiot! BRILLIANT, wouldn’t you say? But ruminating and going on and on about him, his gf, what he did to you, prevents you from dealing with the deeper issues, Linda and that is within YOU. I agree that understanding the psychopath in every way you can, blogging, etc, NEEDS to be done to understand what HE IS AND DOES, but once you GET that, it comes down to YOU and why you were vulnerable, and the only way out of it is to deal with what you’re avoiding. That’s where the DEEPER pain lies. It can’t happen when you’re living in misery and what may be what made you vulnerable in the first place. BIG HUGS. Kel

  92. Kelli: Glad to hear the book is “interesting” I would never take any action for revenge but this is only a feeling I battle with from time to time and its normal from what others have expressed also.

    Thank you for all you have expressed in your observations. I will do some further exploring on these issues and questions you asked. I already know WHY this happened and I know what I need to do to stop going over and over and over the nature of this psychopaths predation of me; easier to say than to do sometimes.

    Thanks again for your honesty. Linda

  93. Linda,

    I think it is normal and I’m sorry if I came across as harsh to you as that is not my intent here.

    Linda, I got involved with a psychopath because I was vulnerable. One of the things that has hit me really hard in reading Thomas’s book is that, not only is it really good in explaining the psychopath, etc, but he does go into detail about what No Contact Ever Again really means. And that this experience can be one of what ends up to be GREAT JOY, if one is willing to go through the pain of SELF EXAMINATION. At first, i was really angry when I read that because it’s so much easier to blame my ex for what he did to me. And he DOES deserve the blame for his behavior and how he manipulates, uses and abuses…but I have some responsibility in this now too, now that I UNDERSTAND what a psychopath is/does/will always be, once you get it, then it’s up to you to fix whatever deficits that created the vulnerability in the first place. Somehow, taking the responsibility now for my life in that he is GONE, will always be disordered and that I was BLESSED to get away from him…and asking myself the deeper harder questions as to WHY I got involved… makes it less painful in one way, while more in another. I have to address my issues now that made me vulnerable so that I’m never vulnerable like that again. I was vulnerable because I was just coming out of a 20 year abusive marriage. He was the distraction from that pain and it caused even MORE pain. I couldn’t name that at the time, but I can now. You can only change what you KNOW is/was wrong, not what you don’t. Thomas emphasizes critically examining ourselves and that life CAN be better, that basically the psychopathic experience tells us we need to grow up, something the psychopath cannot do. What this relationship did was point out areas to which need healing that are deeper. I never did grieve the loss of my marriage either. I never dealt with it. Now I will. I’m slowly changing my life and it feels PAINFULLY slow, but it’s necessary. I understand everything you’re going through, but the hard questions need to be asked so that you never allow this into your life again and become truly joyful and happy in your life. I know the analogy is old, but healing is peeling layer after layer of pain in our lives that has nothing to do with the psychopath. And 20 years of an abusive marriage for me, is a lot to peel, along with ten more of an abusive relationship as an OW. I think Thomas is right, as well as Claudia and those a little further in the recovery process. I apologize if I seem insensitive to you. I truly don’t mean to be, but I need to be honest too. Oftentimes that’s not always comfortable, but the cliche is true, it starts out about them, but it then becomes about us.I’ve had a good clunk over the head from time to time when I get off track. And Claudia doesn’t mind clunking. That’s what we need sometimes with supportive others who care for us and see that maybe we’re just a little stuck, but need a little push forward. Now I understand why. Kel

  94. Linda,
    The extreme revenge feelings are normal. Eventually they go away.

    You know, I once dated, when I was younger, guys that in the first date or two showed they were sleaze, tried to rape me, etc.That is not hard to get over. You write them off as total creeps.

    And when I was younger, I broke up with boys who I had really cared for or even loved, or they broke up with me, and that hurt….but it was just mourning, like grieving any loss. and in that way, it is kind of normal and you know that your heart will heal.

    But breaking up with a cluster B is entirely different. And leads to all the kinds of feelings you’ve been having and all of us have gone through.

    And I think in most cases, but not all, it does eventually lead to self-examination, because you never want that to happen again! Just like if you’ve had food poisoning and you know what caused it, you may never eat that food again. Why chance it, you think! When something really horrible happens, we want to know how to make sure it won’t happen again, or at least decrease the odds.

    But always remember, no bad food= no food poisoning, no matter what you ate. And no bad Cluster B’s = none of this pain that all of us went through, no matter what your “vulnerabilities”.

    And some of these cluster B’s are soo good at what they do, they even fool psychologists trained to spot them etc.

    I think anyone who has been involved with a cluster B did things that they now shake their heads over……wondering why and how they ever did that! It is just part of THEIR disease that impacts us that way, and is diagnostic of what is wrong with THEM. For us, it shows we are human.

    Some of us see patterns, where we are ATTRACTED to these types of people, and that is worth working to get over….just like if you found you were attracted to eating a poison mushroom. About the third time you did it, you hope you would wake up and say…hey, you know what…I don’t like those mushrooms anymore. But the mushroom is still the problem. But it is a problem you can take steps to avoid.

    Okay, hope that makes some sense. Be gentle on yourself, you were emotionally raped, among other things!

  95. Kelli: I didnt interpret what you wrote as “harsh” or insensitive. One of the unfair things in becoming a victim of anything bet it rape, theft, whatever the predator took from you or how ever he damaged you in the end it is the victim that must take the responsibility to survive it and overcome it, Its hard for me to come to terms with that because I just want to blame the rotten SOB and he is 100% responsible and accountable for what he did do to me there is NO DOUBT about that. I KNEW after a year into the relationshit that he was NOT RIGHT, something was really wrong it was at that point I should have folded my cards and said ENOUGH, NO MORE this was a HUGE misjudgment on my part and I want NOTHING further to do with you, that is what I SHOULD HAVE DONE but I DIDNT I let it escalate to such a sick and unhealthy degree and now I have to ask myself WHY ????? What made me stay, what was my weakness that I had that I would ALLOW another person sick or not sick to do that to me? I did hang on for the most part thinking one day we WOULD be together as he promised but when the sick perversion kicked in I should have RAN LIKE HELL – also too Kelli much of why we stayed was attributed to their pathology; maybe some trauma bonding was there, we werent dealing with just your average jerks here – these are highly disturbed individuals who have worn personas their whole lives they are SKILLED in manipulation so this was harder to remove myself from. Now if I was happy in my marriage would he have been able to lure me? HIGHLY DOUBTFUL but then again if I was happy and content chances are he never would have tried I would not have been vulnerable enough for him. I KNOW why I stayed, HE GAVE ME ATTENTION good or bad, sick or not sick he noticed me. I can only describe my marriage as LONELY, this is NOT uncommon after 25 years of marriage so many of my friends ALSo complain of this he does his thing, she does her thing but it was MORE than just the lonely state I was in Kelli the path gave me EVERYTHING my husband NEVER has, I try to examine in the idealization stage what he gave me that I seemed to need so badly; it was tenderness, gentleness, understanding, compliments, even though all of this was an act and faked it was certainly the opposite of what my husband gave me for the past 20 years nothing but criticism, put downs, telling me I was too fat, (I am a size 10) never EVER helped me as I worked full time with the kids, errands, the house etc. During the idealization stage I felt like a worthwhile person a person of value and worth and it really opened my eyes to how very WRONG my husband had treated me, it was the path who in an indirect way showed me just how wrong my husbands behavior has been towards me. My husband no longer abuses me that stopped about 3 years ago, I dont have misconceptions about myself GOD knows I have faults and I dont expect my husband to walk around the house idealizing me that is NOT REALISTIC I have only wanted to be recognized and appreciated – although he tells me he has always appreciated me he just doesnt know how to show it. Marriage takes work and we stopped working on our marriage years ago and of course I run off into the sunset with some psychopath who promised me a life of idealization right? The path idealized me, my husband devalued me (but not sexually) who do you think I am going to cling to? If I had lived with the path it would have been a life of abuse FAR WORSE than my husband ever did.

    I think I also have some layers of abuse I need to peel off to find what is really underneath all of it. Its a self destructive pattern to go from abuse to WORSE abuse and there is a reason for it why did it take the x path to make me FINALLY stand up to my husband and say, NO MORE, YOU WILL NOT BEHAVE THIS WAY TOWARDS ME or I will leave you, and I did leave him last year for three months; he cried and was extremely upset I left but I dont think he ever asked himself, why did my wife leave, why was she so unhappy with me, oh I told him but I dont think he sees his wrong behavior as he should. Maybe a better question is why do I gravitate to men with abusive natures? interesting that Thomas wants us to examine ourselves in the light of all this to also find our truths in why this happened. We spend so much time tearing the paths apart we already KNOW what they are and we know that is someone we can NEVER have in our life if we want to live healthy but what do I need to do in order to find this from within myself? x0x0 Linda

  96. Kelli and Linda, That is so true! Kel, you sure read fast. I’m so glad you liked Sheridan’s book. My psychopathic ex kept writing to me for four years now since our breakup, not in order to get me back but in order to prevent the wounds and hurt from healing. Psychopaths like to pour salt on the wounds they cause. The only way to heal is to not let them get to you and find meaning in your life. Boredom and vulnerability is part of what gets us ensnared in the psychopathic bond. Constructive activities and real human relationships is what helps get us out. Claudia

  97. Susan, I went through a long phase of feeling angry and betrayed by the psychopath too. It went away when I no longer cared about his cyberstalking nor about him. Indifference does not come automatically because of the degree of deceit and betrayal we suffered at the hands of psychopaths, with whom NO aspect of the relationship was ever real. This doesn’t happen in any normal relationship, not even in those that end up badly and with bitterness. Emotional rape is the right term. Claudia

  98. Linda,

    Do you have a therapist? I think maybe going over this seriously with your therapist would help.

    I see the potential issue for you, but it does take work. I realize it doesn’t seem fair after what the psychopath did to you, but at the same time, ruminating about him constantly, is only distracting from what you need to do about your marriage, whether it’s a divorce, or marriage counseling. There is a lot of work to be done there. And a lot of work to be done within you too. I guess I could be angry with my psychopath forever, if I allowed it, but festering in poison is not what I want with my life and I know you don’t want it either. I see it as a blessing in some ways, because it opened my eyes to my own issues and what i need to work on so I avoid anything in my life like this again. And it is hard and very painful work. But there is light at the end of the tunnel and relief from the ruminating once you take back your power from him. Part of this is eating you alive LInda because you’re still giving him your power. They love that. Kel

  99. Julian, Wow I think I married your ex’s twin sister. Right down to the 120 year old house, Which we bought together. which “she spent all her money on”. HA HA HA as I’m still licking my financial wounds. After all I left with only my cloths and an air mattress. Oh she bought all the furnishing’s also… another HA HA HA! No matter what you do its not good enough, because they are convinced in their own mind that it wasn’t you that did the good things. You are only responsible for the bad and beleive me mine is quick to point out the bad. Its like a word association game with her. I point out good and the first thing that comes to her mind is bad. It truly is a mind f_ck.

  100. That’s it “poor salt on the wounds.” My ex does that all the time. She finds a reason with the kids to poor the salt. My wounds aren’t as big now but it still hurts, I will say it is getting easier to poor water on them and wash away the salt. One thing I’ve found that helps me is to just laugh at her, not literally but in my head. it seams to lessen the blow and transforms my thoughts to more important things. I beleive I have a ways to go yet. I think lately the hardest thing has been not saying anything to people about her. I still feel I have to stick up for myself even though there may not be a reason to. Its how she manipulates that makes me feel that way. I want people to know about her but in the same respect I don’t want to be the guy that everybody says cant get over his ex, which is totally not the case. I am over her I just cant get away from her if you know what I mean. I will say this. I’ve been real busy and haven’t been able to read posts for a few days. You can say I lapsed on my education. It is nice to get back and catch up with people that understand and can help each other with their own experience’s.

  101. Gary, it’s good to hear from you again. Pouring salt on your wounds, by using your child, makes your ex feel more powerful. Like she still can control your reactions and has some power over you. Of course, she doesn’t really, because you see through her
    and therefore can control your own reactions far more than before. Claudia

  102. Gary, welcome back! I too have also been really busy lately, and apologize for my tardiness in responding to posts. You bring up some really good points, and yes, your ex and mine seem to be both cast from the same mold, and it truly is a mind f-ck.

    Every repair, renovation or upgrade I did to her incredibly ancient house, a few weeks later I would hear her on the telephone with a friend talking about how *she* had done it. I never got any credit for anything at all. The real clincher was when I read a court deposition by her soon-to-be-ex-husband detailing all the contractor bills that he had paid for during their relationship – for all the things that SHE had taken credit for (and thus impressed me) when we first met. This was one of my first inklings that she was a total fraud, and this is one that I took very seriously, as she was doing the same to me.

    I recently saw the movie “Basic Instinct” and I highly recommend that you watch it also, if you haven’t already. Towards the end we discover that the most dangerous female psychopath is not the one we’re the most familiar with, but the one “in our midst” (as Robert Hare would say). The one with respectable credentials and so capable at faking caring and compassion.

    If anyone ever asks me, instead of sticking up for myself or trying to put her down, I’ll just suggest that they watch “Basic Instinct” and pay attention to Dr. Beth’s character, as it very accurately portrays my ex psychopath.

    I wish you all the best, my friend. – Julian.

  103. Julian, glad to hear from you. We were getting worried about you! I think Basic Instinct was a good portrayal, as is the Julia Roberts classic, Sleeping with the Enemy. Claudia

  104. Claudia, thank you very much. I have been extremely occupied this week, and not as active here as I’d like to be. Oddly enough, I did see “Sleeping with the Enemy” – and it was my ex that procured the movie! – Julian.

  105. Julian, I guess that’s called foreshadowing (in reverse:). Claudia

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